Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 207

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    Yes, and this document is a complete report of the doings
 1of that unit or formation.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In that place and all over Cogno up to the beginning of
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     May I say that this particular page was supplied to me by
 6Dr Gerald Fleming in fact, two or three years ago.
 7I relied on that when I wrote my Goebbels biography.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     This particular page was supplied to me by Dr Gerald
10Fleming, and I relied on the statistics in it when I wrote
11my biography of Dr Joseph Goebbels. You will find that I
12have quoted his statistics.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are looking at it now, Mr Irving, as you no doubt
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I recognized the figures. You will find that page in my
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you say in the Goebbels book is a little more
18generous in point of truth or accuracy than what you said
19just now. You said it was a possibility that it was the
20same one. In the book you said on page 377: "So much for
21Minsk". I do not know what you are saying about Minsk,
22but it may not matter.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Very much the same.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The train load of Berlin's Jews sent to Kanas, Cogno, in
25Lithuania on November 17th probably fared no better". You
26cite the Jaeger report and that entry in it.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. How can I be called the Holocaust denyer when again
 2and again I put these statistics in my books, if I may ask
 3the question?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let's get the position clear. You keep asking that
 5question rhetorically as though it answered itself,
 6Mr Irving. It does not. So far as the shooting of Jews
 7is concerned, what do you reckon is the total number that
 8were disposed of by shooting? We maybe had this
 9discussion on the first day of the trial, I cannot
10remember, but tell me again if we have.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Disposed of by shooting? Where? In the East?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Order of magnitude I would say at least half million, and
14probably as many as one and a half million.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where we part company, Mr Irving, I think, is that you
16have repeatedly said, have you not, that these were, and
17you rely for example on the message to Jekiln (?) Of 1st
18December from Himmler? You have repeatedly said that
19these words, quasi or not even quasi, were criminal
20shootings by high Maverick commanders of the SS out in the
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The phrase used by Himmler is arbitrary actions.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are coming back to Himmler very shortly.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     And actions against the guidelines.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your position is that these mass shootings and other
26shootings in the East were not in any sense part of a

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 1system, but were local acts of criminality?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     The system ended when the train arrived. The system put
 3the Jews and the other victims on the trains and sent them
 4to the East with the food and equipment to start a new
 5life. Once they arrived on the spot, the system broke
 6down, and the murderers stepped in.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But these reports coming back from the
 8Einsatzgruppen are going to Berlin, are they not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know, my Lord, because there is no kind of
10indication on it or initialling on whom it went to.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Where do you say they were going then?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     They certainly went -- unfortunately we do not know, my
13Lord, because my copy of the report ends on page 9,
14I think, so it has not even got a signature on it. It has
15a signature Jaeger, but no address list, so we do not know
16where it went to. But it would be reasonable to assume
17that the report went to the Reichzeike heis haufdampt (?)
18Of Heydrich.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Which is in Berlin?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     In Berlin.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Because Mr Irving, in Berlin, in Heydrich's
22headquarters, from time to time -- I do not know whether
23they were regular or how frequent they are -- but there
24were these things called areignis meldungen (?)
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which were actually composed in that office in Berlin, and

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 1many of them carry summaries of this kind of material?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do they not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So the probability is that that went back to Berlin?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The probability is that this went back to Berlin, yes, as
 7I said.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that not evidence of some kind of system operating at
 9the behest of and under the control of the authorities in
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I draw your attention to the fact this is the very day
12when the very sharp reprimand went from Hitler's
13headquarters, signed by Himmler, to the people carrying
14out the murders saying these arbitrary actions are to stop
15forthwith, and the murder of the Jews stopped for many
16months, the German Jews.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These Jews?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The murder of the German Jews stopped for many months, so
19that is indication that the system had broken down.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but you agreed on Wednesday or whenever
21it was that that message related only to German Jews and
22these reports cover all other manner of Jews?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The message did not relate only to German Jews but
24certainly the effect was German Jews. The killing of
25German Jews stopped and these are the numbers to which
26Mr Rampton has drawn attention to, Jews being evacuated

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 1from Berlin and Munich and other cities, I believe.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     The shooting of these Jews, Mr Irving, I quite
 3accept, if you are right that there was to be no mass
 4shootings under any circumstances of German Jews, these
 5few, and in the context of this report alas there are few,
 6these few German Jews, probably also the ones from Vienna
 7and Bresslau in the next entry, probably would have
 8infringed the Himmler order if the Himmler order had got
 9to Jaeger in time to save them, which evidently it did
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the reason why I submit that the system broke down
12upon the arrival of these train loads of Jews in the East.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     And the people on the spot said: Let us just get rid of
15them, liquidate them ourselves.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they had food for a maximum of about three weeks
18 A. [Mr Irving]     A start up food supply, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. So Berlin was expecting the SS in Cogno to feed
20them indefinitely?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No. The instructions were to build camps for them. They
22had to build their own concentration camps to live in.
23They were expected to build the camps and set up their own
24work shops there and start a new life in the East,
25anywhere but Germany. That sounds very nice for the
26planners in Berlin, but it is less practical on the spot

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