Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 207

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    It is a report of one Einsatz commandos, Einsatz
 1Ukraine and D in South Russia, roughly speaking I think.
 2Your Lordship will see at the top of the first page,
 3Mr Irving as well, it has place and date, Kauen um, 1st
 4December 1941. That is perfectly good German, is it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So this makes you wonder about this report, does it?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     You are asking me if it is good German. I would say no, a
 8German would say Kauen den aus December einefurtzig (?)
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you have seen it elsewhere, have you not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I have not.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have. You have seen it on some of the Auschwitz
12documents, have you not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Are we going to get into a discussion now on authenticity
14of documents?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I just want to know what you say about that little
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I am saying that it is not regular German.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but it is a mistake, if it be a mistake, that a German
19could easily make, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It could be a mistake that an ill educated German would
21make, as would be, for example, on blatt 7, if I may turn
22to that.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do that, whereabouts on this page
24are you, 1st December, Mr Rampton?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Very first line top right.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Top right hand corner underneath handwritten 119.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 5.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I asked your Lordship to go back to page 1, just
 3to identify it, because your Lordship wanted it
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry I missed you. Right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Kauen is one German form of Cogno?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     For Cogno.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1st December 1941. I am going to look at much more of
 9this in a moment, but it is a report. I cannot read the
10first one gezundt aus stellung (?), is it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Gezundt aus stellung.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A full ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Collective presentation.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Presentation.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Der imber Reich (?) -- What does that mean?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     In the area of.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     E K 3, up to the 1st December 1941, of executions carried
18out. Is that right?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you wish to address briefly the authenticity of
20this document.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are denying it, you ought to say so.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     He has asked me would I accept that um ersten (?) December
23is authentic German and I would say no, it is not. It
24would be incorrect irregular German.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you say this is not an authentic document?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I am not saying that. I am answering his

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 1question. I also wish to draw attention on page 7, about
 215 lines down in the third complete paragraph, das zeil
 3(?), halfway down there, my Lord, you will see that the
 4rank of SS Oberstum Fuhrer and SS is typed as two capital
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     All the high ranking SS officers had typewriter with the
 8SS runes, my Lord. They would not type SS. It would be
 9very rare to find an SS document in which SS is typed as
10two capital Ss. It is not entirely impossible, but it is
11very rare.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am baffled by this. Are you challenging the
13authenticity of this?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it is not a document I have relied upon. It is
15not a document laid before me when I wrote my book and I
16am quite happy to answer questions on the content of it.
17But Mr Rampton asked me my opinion about the document and
18I spotted straight away those two discrepancies just by
19leafing through it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     You may have done, Mr Irving, but that really does
21not answer his Lordship's question. I have no doubt that
22you recognized this document immediately as soon as we
23opened the file, did you not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I know what it is about. I have heard about it, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you recognized it. You said this is the Jaeger

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, by the date, 1st December 1941.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have never read it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I have never analysed it in detail, let's put it like
 4that, and I certainly did not read it when I wrote my
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Either you have X-ray eyes or you read very quickly
 7because you seemed to have spotted a mistake, as you call
 8it, on blatt 7 immediately.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I was looking for. That is the real
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You knew it was there?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord, you would have seen it. When he asked me to
13look for it, I began leafing through it and looking for
14SS, which is the first thing you would look for in a
15document you are suspicious about. But, for the purpose
16of this morning, I will accept that it is authentic, with
18 MR RAMPTON:     Then we have had an interesting but wholly
19academic discussion.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you asked me if I considered it to be
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I asked you whether you accept that this is an authentic
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, now we all accept it is.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Now we know that it is so far as this discussion

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 1is concerned.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     With reservations.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Page 5?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Under the middle of the page, months of November.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Third line, 25th November of 41, Kauen F 9 is Fort 9. It
 8was divided up into different sort of fortresses, was it
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They kill, execute, 2,934 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In brackets underneath it says, again roughly speaking:
15Evacuees from Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree that it is likely that that is where your
18train load of 944 well provisioned Jews wound up?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I would say it is not impossible. It is eight days
20later. There were several train loads, of course.
21I cannot speak specifically that that particular train
22load would have ended up in that particular atrocity.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can tell you that there are no other references to Jews
24from Berlin in this document.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     In this document?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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