Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 207

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course, how long would milk last on board a train for
 2three or four days?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I should have thought in November, in that part of Europe,
 4quite a long time. Would your Lordship excuse me for just
 5one moment?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am going to ask you this. I do not
 8normally ask a question to which I do not know the answer,
 9but on this occasion I will. Who paid for this food to go
10on this train?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not know?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have assumed, though, from the way in which you
15characterized it last Thursday, that it was the Nazis, the
16SS who paid for it?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I can go into some detail on this in fact. Before the
18Jews were kicked out of Berlin, they were robbed. They
19were robbed blind.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So one way ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The German Finance Office asked them to fill in a form
22listing all their assets. These assets were formally
23seized by the German state. Page by page of these
24documents are still in the Berlin Finance Ministry files.
25They were robbed blind. I am not sure what the relevance
26is to your particular question, because I cannot prove

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 1that happened on this occasion.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The relevance is this, Mr Irving.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I stated that in my books, too.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the relevance is this. So far from this being
 5a dent in Holocaust, whatever you call it----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Perception.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- Perception, it is quite possible, is it not, that, one
 8way or another, directly or indirectly, this food was paid
 9for by the Jews?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite possible, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The kindly SS provision the train so far as they have and
12the camp when they get there at the Jews' own expense?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     But it is still not the perception we now have of cattle
14trucks of Jews being shipped across Europe with no food
15and water for three or four days and arriving half dead at
16the other end. It may very well have happened in the
17later phases of the war.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That is the trouble. You are muddling up two
19pictures are you not, Mr Irving? There is the early stage
20of the German Jews. They do not even get started on
21killing the German Jews in a big way until much later on.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     If you wish to talk ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then there is the much later, from the summer of 1942
24onwards, when we get into cattle truck country, are we
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I remember reading in the private papers of Adolf

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 1Eichmann, which I found in Argentina, that he describes
 2the steps he took to ensure that the trains were properly
 3provisioned when they left Hungary and his indignation
 4when he found that the Hungarian police officials had
 5embezzled a lot of the money and food and so on so that
 6the trains were not being properly provided. This just
 7goes marginally to what you are saying. Undoubtedly,
 8there was a lot of hardship and cruelty and barbarism.
 9But the point I would wish to make is why is it that your
10experts have not quoted the documents I have put before
11the court.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you come across any other intercepts or
13any other messages referring to the provisioning ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     There are, my Lord.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     For the transcript, just wait until I have asked the
16question -- any other documents evidencing the
17provisioning of these transports of Jews?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I have, my Lord, and I have put one or two more into that
19particular bundle.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I have found one more. I am not sure I have seen more
21than one.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not strictly relevant, my Lord, to the pleadings,
23otherwise I would have stuffed the bundle with even more
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But there are more?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I intend asking Dr John Fox. He is an expert on these

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 1police decodes and we can ask him about them.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, tell me why you think my experts paid
 3no attention to these documents?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I certainly have not seen any reference in expert reports
 5to those intercepts relating to the provisioning of the
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why would that have any relevance if these documents do
 8not suggest what you say they assert? What if these
 9documents are no more than they appear to be, records of
10train loads of Berlin Jews going to the East with
11provisions on board for whom one knows not, but quite
12possibly to feed the Jews to some extent when they get to
13the camp before they are shot? What is so significant
14about that?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     The relevance is, Mr Rampton, that, if your experts are
16doing their job conscientiously, then it is incumbent on
17them, according to their own averments at the end of their
18reports, to do so impartially without fear or favour to
19either side. They should also have included any materials
20like those which go against the notion that this was a
21systematic programme to exterminate the Jews. If you are
22going to exterminate Jews, you do not send them to the
23East on trains properly provisioned with tons and tons of
24food and appliances with which they can set up a new
25future in the East when they get there, which is the
26inference which is clearly to be drawn from those decoded

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 1messages. I would be interested to see if you can draw
 2any other inference from those messages.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what we are now going to do, as I promised you I
 4was going to do, Mr Irving. Could Mr Irving please be
 5given file H 3 (i)?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. This one I have got.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that is the first volume of Professor
 8Browning's documents. Could we please turn to footnote
 98? Again, the document is identified for these purposes
10not by any stamped or printed or typed number, but by a
11handwritten F N 8 at the bottom right hand corner of the
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I expect you recognize this document, do you not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     The Jaeger report.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the Jaeger report. If you turn to its 5th page,
17blatt 5 at the top of the page, this is a copy of,
18I suppose, either an original typed or an original carbon
19copy, I do not know. You do not have any qualms about the
20authenticity of this document, do you?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     For my benefit, can you say what it is? Is
22it a report from an Einsatzgruppen.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It is a report of one Einsatz commandos, Einsatz
24Commando 3, which is part of Einsatzgruppe A, and they are
25in charge. Geographically it runs, A is in Ostland, the
26Baltic states, and then B is in White Russia, C in the

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