Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 207

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    But you told on Thursday that it was quite certain that
 1contentious paragraph because the tense changes from the
 2past in the first sentence to direct speech in the second,
 3well, from the ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     To be more specific, the part that Longerich alleged was
 5Hitler being quoted was not in the subjunctive tense. It
 6was not in the subjunctive.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We went through that in considerable detail
 8on Thursday.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and also we are not referring to this paragraph, we
10are referring to one specific sentence.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Now I want to go back, please, and you will see
12how it is going to develop as we go along. I give you
13notice of what I am now going to do.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     If I may just say, what alarms me is the fact that you had
15from my discovery the documents showing precisely how much
16of this diary was at my disposable when I wrote the book.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are moving on now, Mr Irving. I take your
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that, but I think it is dishonest for them to
20have advanced this kind of argument.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is a comment you can make at the end of the case but
22let us get on now with the questions and answers.
23 MR RAMPTON:     You will have that opportunity. What I am going
24to do is I am going to start with your Kovno train which
25we dealt with on Thursday of 17th November 1941, and then
26I am going to use that as a way of opening the door to

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 1what I call system. Do you understand?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Right.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we, first of all, start with your Kovno train. Have
 4you that little bundle?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not, but I am quite familiar with the documents.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you take me to it, Kovno train? I am
 7sorry, the significance of that is completely missing to
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The train from Bremen to Kovno.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Could your Lordship first turn up page 13 of the
11transcript for Thursday and the other documents, the
12little Irving documents I call them, are at tab 3 of file
13J, my Lord, or should be.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I would quite like Mr Irving to have both what he
16said in court and the Cogno signal.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the intercept - correct?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has anybody got a spare transcript? Page 5 is the
19translation, or the transcription, I know not which and it
20does not matter. Just have that open. Is it possible for
21him to have a transcript for Thursday?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have the wrong bundle. Are we talking about
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what is going to happen when you have
25all these little files knocking around. We must put them
26all in the same place. I have them in J and I hoped

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 1everybody else was going to put it in J, tab 3.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I have J 1.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To save time, could somebody pass up the
 4bundle which has the index on the front of it? It is
 5called bundle C, Himmler.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     This is bundle J 1 again.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that is the right bundle. You
 8are talking about the clip that Mr Irving handed in?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Probably on Wednesday.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has called it Claimant bundle C Himmler.
13I had hoped everyone was putting it in J but, wherever it
14is, can somebody hand it up because every minute that goes
15by is a waste of time.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am very familiar with the document, if you wish to
18 MR RAMPTON:     I think we can get most of it anyway, Mr Irving,
19from what you said in the witness box. We will not spend
20any more time.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I read most of the document out, I believe.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Can I read from line 4 on page 13 of the
23transcript? "In this particular case what is significant
24is that the man in Berlin is telling his recipient in Riga
25on November 17th", in other words that same day at 6.25
26p.m., "transport train number blah has left Berlin for

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 1Cogno or Kaunat" -- in fact it is K A U N A S, is it not,
 2and sometimes Mr Irving, pausing there, sometimes in
 3German K A U E N?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the problem. A lot of these towns have three or
 5four different names.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it is all the same place, is it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Cogno and Kauen.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Cogno is an old fortified, or fortress in the Latvian
 9country side, or is it Lithuania? It matters not perhaps
10very much. "With 940 or more Jews on board, or 940 more".
11In fact it was 944, was it not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It obviously was. I think that is probably
13just a mistranscription. Understandable.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I think so too. "That was usually the rough size
15of each train load of Jews, about 1,000 Jews. Transport
16escorted by two Gestapo and 15 police officers. Transport
17commander is criminal Ober SS Exner (?), and the man's
18name, who has two copies of the transport list with him.
19Transport provided with ...". We have not got the German
20of this. What is the German that you translate "as
21provided with"?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not like to hazard a guess.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. "With following provisions"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Vorversehen (?)
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Provided?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, literally.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For seeing, as it were?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     We must not mention the word Latin.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Provided with following provisions", and this is the
 4interesting part, my Lord: "3,000 kilograms of bread, 3
 5tons of bread for a two or three day journey, 2700 (it
 6should read) kilograms of flour, nearly 3 tons of flour,
 7200 kilograms of peas, etc. 300 kilograms of cornflakes,
 818 bottles of soup spices", -- then continuing in the next
 9message, 52 kilograms of soup powders, ten packets of
10something or other, we do not know, 50 kilograms of salt,
1147,200 reichmarks in crates. What do you suppose those
12were for?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It was credits, credits.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, for whom?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point of having them on the
17train? That is really the question.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I imagine it was the same with bomber crews. When they
19flew to Germany, they carried money with them. One always
20needed money. You cannot send a train load of people
21around Europe without money to pay for things.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This money was for the 944 Jews, was it?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I applied that it was.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No, presumably not. Presumably it was to cover transport

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