Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 207

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    My Lord, when you see these pages, it is printed in the
 1spaces between each line. He has about 100 words on each
 2page, my Lord, so it is very many further pages further
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, that is what I was trying to find out. In my
 5version it is very few pages further on.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     In your photocopy of the original facsimile?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, in this printed version it is only ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is only a few pages further on, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Three?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the point is that, apparently, in the
11original diaries it is all very much spread out?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     For your Lordship's amusement, I will bring one page of it
13to you tomorrow and you can see what it looks like.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If anything turns on it, I do not know.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I think Mr Rampton apprehends that this is a major point;
16it has been flashed around the world that I was wrong
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I think you have made the point on Thursday that you
19did not actually know it was 30 or 40 pages further on
20because you did not ever read it so you could not tell?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Now we know, my Lord.
22 MR RAMPTON:     This is one thing I am concerned about,
23Mr Irving. You said, and I will read you your words --
24have you had your transcript ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- for Thursday? His Lordship is right. It was

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 1something along the lines of 30 or 40 pages further on
 2which is just not right, is it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     What is not right, the exact phrase?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will find the exact words.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 153.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That is right. You said: "Had I read on another
 730 or 40 pages in the diary for that day, I would probably
 8have come across the full length description of the report
 9Gauleiters' speech on which Longerich is relying?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely right. This is probably 30 pages further on,
11but it shows my guess was absolutely right ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     30?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     --- without even having seen it.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me, if you will, if you look at -- this is edited by
15Elke Frohlich, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it is not any sense edited by having things omitted?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not believe so, no.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a continuous text?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, is there much mileage in this
21because I think the next day, I mean the next page,
22I asked, "How do you know it is 30 or 40 pages further
23on?" and he makes clear that he did not know it was, but
24he had a glass plate with 45 pages on it and it was on
25that, so it must have been on the next one?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have been 25 pages on that one, my Lord -- no, 48

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 1single pages.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Is this glass plate that you transcribed, or some
 3of it, the only one for that date that you looked at?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is the reason why I provided you over the
 5weekend with a list of the actual pages that we looked at,
 6the actual glass plates.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but do you understand there is a difference -- I know
 8you do -- between what you transcribed and what you looked
10 A. [Mr Irving]     We looked at all the glass plates.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite simply to establish an inventory. I looked through
13every single glass plate in the 1500 glass plates with
14this magnifier, established from the title line across the
15top what period was covered, put a yellow post-it on the
16glass side, not the emulsion side, of each plate
17indicating what date it was.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you will have read the passage that Longerich relied
20 A. [Mr Irving]     You did not hear what I said. On the top of every page,
21on the top of every plate there was a title line written
22in handwriting saying the dates, the actual dates covered
23by that plate, like 13th to 14th December 1941. You did
24not have to look actually at the individual pages.
25I could see straightaway and say this is 13th to 14th
26December 1941, it is already out of our period of interest

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 1because we were looking at Pearl Harbour.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How did you make your selection if you did not read the
 3whole thing?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Time made the selection for us. We knew we were only
 5there for a limited length of days. We had a flight to
 6come back to England. You had to make judgment decisions
 7and say, well, Pearl Harbour was December 7th 1941, we are
 8already on December 13th, my commission from the Sunday
 9Times was to get material relating to Pearl Harbour. I
10had already read as much as I considered was necessary.
11Had I known that later on in the same entry he would have
12gone on about the Fuhrer talking to the Gauleiters at
13greater length, I might have gone on, but you cannot
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have answered my question, I think, which is that you
16did not read it at the time?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, and it was not before me at the time.
18Even now, to buy these diaries, you have to lay out more
19than £1,000. So it is quite an expensive task. I have
20now purchased them, but they have only just been
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     While you have that out, can I ask you a little word about
23something you said on Thursday? I think you told us, if
24you look at the passage quoted in Longerich, yes?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The passage quoted in?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, the passage quoted by Longerich is at the bottom of

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 1page 498 of the Frohlich edition?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, "In connection with the Jewish question, the Fuhrer
 3has decided to make tabula rasa".
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and then it goes on, "He prophesized to the Jews that
 5if they began yet another World War, they would thereby
 6bring about their own destruction", roughly speaking?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a crude translation, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is reporting there, is he not, either something Hitler
 9said to the Gauleiters on 12th December, or he is
10reminding himself of what Hitler said on 30th January?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     January.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1939 in the ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     You cannot tell from this particular quotation.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You cannot, can you?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the old gramaphone record that Hitler played again
16and again.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, indeed. Then you say, well, you know from that point
18on, I think, "Das ist keine Phrase gewesen", that these
19are no longer Hitler's words because it is in direct
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in direct speech, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So is the first sentence, is it not? "Bezuglich der
23Judenfrage ist der Fuhrer entschlossen"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is also in direct speech?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He uses direct speech.

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