Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 207

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    Either that or you could discard it, my Lord, because I am
 1sure that you have appreciated the point that I wish
 2to make.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but I will not keep it in my mind for the next two
 5 Cross-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, just so that I understand what you have
 7just been telling us. I am not going to explore it now,
 8but I want to understand what it is that we have got
 9here. These typed pages, 1 to 21, we have not got all 21?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No, you have not.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We just have the relevant ones.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The ones that are relevant, yes, for the entry.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are extracts transcribed by you, is that right, on a
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Let me be precise. Sitting at the table in Moscow,
18I indicated to my assistant, I said, "Please dictate from
19here down to there" from the glass plates. Now let me get
20this absolutely correct. I read the glass plates,
21I dictated them, and later on I transcribed them. Either
22I dictated them or she dictated them. We shared the work
23on that particular occasion. I think, in fact, she
24dictated because if you look on page 16, I have 11th
25December and in square brackets afterwards: "So says
26Susie". I was a bit doubtful about whether she had got

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 1the date right on printed page 17.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Printed page 17?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     And it is on about the seventh line, 11th December, and in
 4square brackets I have put in a little question mark, "So
 5says Susie?"
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Susie is your assistant?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, because you would have had to go back about
 840 pages on the glass plates to find out what the actual
 9date of the entry was.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have certainly not seen these glass plates. Even if
11I should, I doubt I would make much sense of them. Can
12you tell me about the glass plates? How big is it? There
13is a point to this. I am not just wasting time.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure. The glass plates were about four inches by
15three inches, a regular photographic glass plate,
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This sort of thing?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Slightly smaller than a postcard. Some had 25 images on
19and some had 48 images on, depending on the format.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Each image of those, let us say, is a page, is it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Each image was either one page in the typescript version
22because from July 16th 1941 onwards he dictated to a
23secretary from them until the end of the war, he dictated
24them, so they were typescript. Until 16th July 1941 they
25were handwritten and there were two pages photographed at
26a time in a handwritten diary.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And does each plate represent one day?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     They just filmed continuously and when one plate ran out,
 5they would then put another glass plate in and film the
 6next one. That is why one plate, if you will note on that
 7list, is called December 13th and the next plate is called
 8December 13th to 14th.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I ask you -- I will ask you one more question and then
10I will ask you to look at something -- do you know from
11memory -- you do not seem to have a record of it -- how
12many pages the entry for 13th December 1941 was?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. Well, perhaps I can help you. I do not know.
15It is a possibility. Could Mr Irving please be given
16bundle H4(ii)?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I have not got this, Mr Rampton
18I am sorry. Thank you.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Could you turn to a handwritten FN 156?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     156?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is about two-thirds of the way through the file. It is
22what I call a sideways document. You have to turn the
23file around in order to read it.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a German document. It is headed on the right-hand
26column on page 487, internal page 487, 13th December in

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 1German 1941, yes?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just glance at this. It runs through -- I think it is the
 4whole entry -- to page 501. These are double pages. So
 5it does not involve turning over a lot of pages. 501 is
 6where 14th December starts. Now, do you recognize this
 7printed version?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I do. If you look on page FN 156, you find the passage
 9that is on my transcript.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry? They are all 156.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. It is on printed page, on book page 494. At
12line 283, 282, you see the sentence beginning
13"Nachmittags", "In the afternoon the Fuhrer speaks to the
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see that.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the passage which I got.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have got that passage. But you also got more than
18that, did you not? Where is your U boat war, your boat
20 A. [Mr Irving]     In that same paragraph. It continues in that same
21paragraph on printed page 494, book page 494. It
22continues about the U boat.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And on the opposite page?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     And on the opposite page.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I see that, what is puzzling me about this,
26Mr Irving, is this. I think you translated some of this

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 1or all of it for the Sunday Times, did you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to page 496?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Dab wir im Osten", that is the last of your typewritten
 6German passages, is it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     If you say so, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it looks the same, does it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Page handwritten 21 of my note?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the same one. I think that was the last of the
13passages on this day that you translated for the Sunday
14Times, was it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It was all that I had at the time.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is all that you brought back with you?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understood your evidence about that. Can you turn over?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     498 you probably want, 498.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     498 has disappeared.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it was not 30 or 40 pages further on, it
22was two pages further on.
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, well, that is----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, when you see these pages, it is printed in the
25large, I forget the actual technical name for it, but we
26call it the Fuhrer typewriter, and it is printed with four

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