Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 207

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    Do you wish me to deal with that minor point of
 1Goebbels' diaries?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is a matter of evidence because it
 3was raised with you on Thursday and you can do it in your
 4evidence perfectly easily.
 5 &MR DAVID IRVING, recalled
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving wants to deal with the point. Can
 7he not deal with it first?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I see. This is going to be evidence-in-chief, is
 9it? I will sit down.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is amplification of his answers in
11cross-examination, I think.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the first page of that very small bundle is just
13to show the form in which I had the -- this was the bundle
14which I gave to you this morning, page 1, as numbered at
15the bottom -- this was the form in which I was given the
16Hans Frank diaries by the Institute of History in Munich
17some 30 years ago.
18     I draw your Lordship's attention purely to the
19little omission in the middle, the elipses. Something has
20been left out -- we do not know what it is -- just before
21the vital paragraph which I quoted. I have provided a
22translation. If you now proceed, my Lord, to page 4 of
23that bundle.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I marked it.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- what is actually ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know what has been left out.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You do not know what the elipses represents?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why one has to be extremely cautious about how one
 4then uses the ensuing lines, in my submission.
 5     If you proceed to page 4, my Lord, this is the
 6list made by my assistant in Moscow of the Goebbels'
 7diaries plates as they came to us out of the boxes. My
 8Lord, you will see that they are in total chaos. There is
 9no rhyme or reason in what boxes they are in. If you
10proceed to page 9, my Lord, the fourth, fifth and sixth
11lines refer to the specific entry which we found one day
12relating to Pearl Harbour and the meeting with Hitler on
13December 13th. There is one plate for December 13th. The
14next glass plate carries over from December 13th to 14th.
15You will see notice that it says in German four words ^^
16"bis vierten zila ^^ gilazin".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is "zila"?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It means read until the fourth line.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Fourth line?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the fourth line of that particular entry. We were
21working, I had a very good assistant working with me and
22we were as minutia as that. We kept very detailed records
23of what we did.
24     On page 11, my Lord, you will see that I sent to
25the Sunday Times a confidential survey of the unpublished
26Goebbels' diaries fragments which were in my possession.

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 1If your Lordship proceeds to page 14, this is important,
 2right at the bottom, the last two lines, it says:
 3     "Among the things which I brought back are 21
 4pages of typescript from dictation" covering those dates,
 59th to 13th December 1941, which is Pearl Harbour.
 6     On page 16, my Lord ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just pause a moment. It looks as if you did not touch at
 8all on the entry which straddles 13th?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     We are just coming to that, my Lord.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     14th?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a listing showing that there were 21 pages. That
12is the significance there. On page 16, my Lord, that is
13the folder containing the extracts which were provided to
14the Defendants and you will see they put a yellow post-it
15on it. That is the thing which I have marked. Item
16No. 45, copy from pages 1 to 21, my Lord.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     And I have included, if you look at the handwritten
19numbers on the top, those are the last few pages of the
20bundle numbered pages 1 to 21 which is the entry for
21December 13th 1941. If I draw your Lordship's attention
22to page 20 -- I am sorry the page 20 numbered at the
23bottom -- if I just rapidly translate a couple of lines
24from line 3 onwards "Nachmittag", "In the afternoon the
25Fuhrer speaks to the Gauleiters". This was the meeting
26where we find out now that he mentioned his intentions to

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 1do something.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That was the 12th, was it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     He spoke the previous day. Goebbels always wrote his
 4diary up on the following day. There is a brief summary
 5here at this point in the diary of the conference with
 6Hitler. Then Hitler goes straight on to talk about the U
 7boat war. There is only half a page on this page, my
 8Lord, but it carries on straight over on the next page on
 9about the U boat war.
10     I think the reason why I started a new page was
11that I was having trouble, as your Lordship will see, with
12the typewriter, and I have probably got out my screwdriver
13and fixed it. Your Lordship will see from my Moscow
14diaries that the typewriter had been pancaked by the
16     I invited the Defendants on Friday, if they were
17suspicious about that gap, to contact the library in
18Germany to whom I donated the entire diaries in 1993 where
19they could satisfy themselves that that gap is also on the
20original, my Lord. That is all I have to say on that
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You have a gap on page 22 as well.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that I can establish, in other words, that all
24that I had in front of me when I wrote the book was the
25passage that I had in those diaries, and that what has
26been published since then is moot, is of no consequence to

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 1this particular action.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The other thing is the reference "Hitler speaking to the
 3Gauleiter" ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This is typical of Dr Goebbels, my Lord.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is just one sentence and then he goes on to something
 6completely different.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     He goes on to something else. Then later on he will come
 8back and dictate to his secretary, Richard Otte, a more
 9full account.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But you say you did not have the bit where he comes back
11to it.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That would have been on a subsequent plate, my Lord, or
13possibly later on on that same plate, but we only read to
14the fourth line. So it cannot be held properly against me
15in this court that I had something in front of me which
16I should, if I had it in front of me, had used, and at the
17very end of the bundle, my Lord, you will find four pages
18which are not numbered which is the latest version of the
19Adolf Hitler biography which went to press some time ago
20which contains a perfectly proper treatment of this
21matter, including all the material now available.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just let me wait for the transcript to catch up.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I will try to speak more slowly.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, it is all right. Yes, thank you very much. I am
25going to put this also into the J file.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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