Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 191 - 195 of 207
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1 A. [Mr Irving] If I were to act like your experts and just take books
2down off a shelf and use those as sources, this would be
3improper. I would far prefer to point people reading my
4books to where they can find the original documents so
5they can check it for themselves.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is exactly what you have done in this case, is it
7not? You have actually used some rotten old translation
8by Trevor-Roper or somebody, you have repeated it again
9and again through your editions. You have the original in
11 A. [Mr Irving] Indeed in discovery.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- in your office all the time. You do not use it, but
13you tell the reader you have?
14 A. [Mr Irving] No. I am satisfied that the translation I use is an
15accurate representation of the document I have, apart from
16that one sentence which has obviously been interpolated by
17the English interpreter which I find absolutely
18unconscionable to put a sentence into a translation that
19does not even exist. I know that the other historians are
20jealous that I have got all these documents and they did
21not, but they should not start poking fingers and sneering
22at me because I get these things.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know. We will have this bit of the transcript
24relayed to, Professor Evans is here, but some of the
25others are not.
26 A. [Mr Irving] I am looking forward to when they come.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But not to Trevor-Roper because it was not
2his translation. It was not Trevor-Roper's translation.
3 MR RAMPTON: Can we take that bit of the transcript out and put
4in the right ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in fairness, yes.
6 A. [Mr Irving] He was the editor actually. It is a very good
7translation. It is a very flowing translation.
8 MR RAMPTON: Now I want to go back, if I may, because that is
9where all this started, to Hitler's War, page 465 in the
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. Is this where I say: "Upon arrival thousands were
12simply murdered"? Is this the passage you are referring
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, Mr Irving, I have just lost my place because
15I moved. I have found it. I am just going to ask you one
16quick question about the top of the page, referring back
17to the diary entry of 27th March 1942. You write in the
18middle of the first paragraph on 465:
19 "But he evidently never discussed these
20realities with Hitler. Thus this two-faced Minister
21dictated after a further visit to Hitler on April 26th:
22I have once again talked over the Jewish question with the
23Fuhrer. His position on this problem is merciless. He
24wants to force the Jews right out of Europe. At the
25moment Himmler is handling the major transfer of Jews from
26the German cities into the Eastern gettoes".
1 Why is it evident that this two-faced Minister,
2the odious Dr Goebbels, never discussed these realities
3with Hitler? Is it the same point we discussed earlier?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Is it what?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] The same point as we discussed earlier?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Which point is that?
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, you said in the earlier part that we looked at:
8"That Goebbels privately knew more is plain from his
9diary entry of 27th"?
10 A. [Mr Irving] No, the point I am making there is that had Goebbels
11discussed this kind of thing, what he privately knew, with
12Hitler, this two-faced Minister, then undoubtedly Hitler
13would not have been able to make the kind of remarks he
14did in private conversation with Himmler, Lamus and
15Bormann which are recorded in the table talks.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Why not?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Then that would have evoked gusts of laughter from
18Himmler. Himmler would have said: "Mein Fuhrer, don't you
19realize what's going on?"
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, I am not following that at all.
21 A. [Mr Irving] Right. We have seen, and we can see until the Court
22screams for mercy, in the documents, in the table talks,
23how Hitler repeatedly makes statements which are only
24reconcilable with the notion that he was familiar with the
25expulsion, which cannot be brought into conformity with
26the notion that he knew what was happening when they got
1there, the European Jews.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Suppose, as many people have proposed, I do not know with
3what persuasiveness, Mr Irving, in your mind, but suppose
4as they have proposed Hitler was as often as not simply
6 A. [Mr Irving] Why should he? He is sitting there at the table with the
7arch gangsters, with Himmler, Bormann and the rest who
8know perfectly well what is going on. Why should he
9euphemise to them when he is sitting with them? This is a
10secret record. It is never going to be published. They
11did not know about George Weidenfeld and Hugh
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you have a view of who was at which table talk when you
14read the table talks?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, usually there is a line above the table talks saying
16who is present as the guests of honour. Usually three or
17four people are listed. Verna Kopen did the same in his
18records of the table talks.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am a bit puzzled about this, because if you
20interpret the table talk as meaning that Hitler really was
21thinking only in terms of deportation, I know it has been
22a long day, but how do you reconcile that with your
23acceptance, because I understand you do accept it ----
24 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- that he knew all about the shooting on a massive scale
26on the Eastern Front?
1 A. [Mr Irving] I think your Lordship has grasped the nub of the whole
3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] What is the answer?
4 A. [Mr Irving] The answer is I think that he drew a distinction in his
5own mind between the Eastern vermin, the enemy, and the
6Germans and the Europeans whom he still regarded as being
8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is not clear from this passage in your book, is it?
9 A. [Mr Irving] It will be clear from the other passages that he does draw
10this distinction, my Lord, and perhaps I ought to look
11some of these passages out and draw your Lordship's
12attention to them. But this is the only way you can
13explain this very evident dichotomy which does exist in
14the records, that on the one hand he is saying these
15things and on other hand he is evidently knowing other
16things. Also I think you have something which probably
17only psychiatrists can explain, that people can
18compartmentalize their knowledge of certain things. There
19is a kind of Richard Nixon kind of complex comes in
20saying: "Fellows, do it but don't let me be told". I am
21quite happy to believe that this kind of thing also went
22on. But in the absence of any evidence it would take a
23very adventurous writer to set it down, except in the most
25 MR RAMPTON: Well, Mr Irving, I am going to have to ask you to
26look at some of these table talks, I think, because
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