Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 207

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    That is what it looks like to me. It is rather like
 1like that. It is not impossible.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Exactly. Do you know whether that is so or not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     In schreiken I think it does not have the sense of killing
 4somebody, but it has the sense of rather like sending them
 5to Coventry might be even closer, who knows. But I would
 6have to take advice from a German who is familiar with the
 7vernacular of that particular era.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think Mr Rampton is maybe going to ask you,
 9I am sure he is, where on earth you get "parking them in
10the marshier parts of Russia" from?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Weidenfeld has it, my Lord.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I follow, but you have trotted along behind.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Weidenfeld's translation, if I may say so, is extremely
14good and very literate. You are faced constantly with the
15dichotomy of having a literate translation or a wooden
16translation, and I would aver that this is not one of the
17most important parts of that paragraph. The most important
18part is (a) Hitler saying he is pushing them out
19geographically, and (b) he does not want to be bothered
20until the war is over with, this problem, which goes along
21with my perception of the involvement of Hitler.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I have to put it to you, you just say
23any old thing to get yourself out of a corner. Have you
24got Goebbels' book, page 377?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have read what you wrote as being the translation of

.   P-181

 1the table talk in that paragraph. You see it is footnoted
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now please turn to page 643.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far from your having used the rotten old Weidenfeld
 7translation two or three generations down the line, in
 8fact you did use the original. Footnote 16 on page 643:
 9"Heinreich Heinn, note on Hitler's dinner table talk,
10October 25th junet papers", those are ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is where it is now to be found, yes, the original.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you stuck with the translation that you can see now to
13be complete rubbish, and bears very little relationship
14with the original which you actually used?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not complete rubbish, Mr Rampton. It is very close
16to the original. The colouring is different. The
17colouring assigned to it by the English translator with
18whom I have no connection whatsoever. I adopted the
19colouring adopted by George Weidenfeld and his publisher.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did you not acknowledge them in the footnote?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I in the meantime had the original which is
22available now to historians.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mean you gave a reference ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- for a book written in 1996?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-182

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- to some papers from which you had not taken the
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I gave the superior reference. It is a superior
 4reference. I perhaps should have said: "See also
 5Weidenfeld, table talk, Ed Trevor-Roper" and so on.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. What you should have done, as you know
 7perfectly well, is to have retranslated the thing
 8correctly. You knew it was wrong?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Let us argue it the other way round. I really do not want
10to labour this point, Mr Rampton.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure how long the Court will allow you to labour
13this point, Mr Rampton.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a matter for the Court, Mr Irving.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am getting the hint though.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, if I were to retranslate that sentence
17following Mr Evans' admirable translation to which you
18refer, would that in the slightest degree alter the
19arguments which I seek to make in that paragraph?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes, it would, because what Hitler is then
21saying is something very much stronger, much more
22sinister. He is saying: "It is a good thing that the
23fear that we are exterminating the Jews goes before us"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he says that.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Never mind. We will pass on to the next thing.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He does say that.

.   P-183

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because here now we come to a huge ellipse in the
 2translation which you have given.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     So you accept that even that translation would not alter
 4the argument that I have made?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course it would alter it. It would put much stronger
 6words, threatening words into Hitler's mouth than you have
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Use of the word "fear" instead of "public rumour".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, fear, shock, terror.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we move on to the next passage.
11 MR RAMPTON:     And the absence of any plan. I think your
12Lordship has my point?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Good. You jump or your translation jumps, the
15translation you used jumps from "des Judentung
16aulsgrotten", yes?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To the words, [German spoken], does it not? No, it goes
19even further. Sorry, that is not right. It goes to
20[German spoken]. That is where your translation starts
21again from "aulsgrotten", does it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at what has been missed out. You have missed
24out ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Shall I translate it for you?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, please.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The words which I missed out: "I find myself forced,
 2I have been forced to keep piling up a lot inside me.
 3That does not mean to say that I forget about it without
 4taking cognisance of it, without taking cognisance of it,
 5without showing it immediately." This is the sense of it.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The sense of it is he does not forget?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He does not necessarily take action at once, but it goes
 9into the account and it stays there.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It says, "I am keeping it on the books and one day the
11books are going to be taken out."
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It goes into an account, one day the book is taken
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, which rather implies that nothing is
15happening yet.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Wait, now read the next sentence, please.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This is part I quote, right?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Look at the tense.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, tell me which is the point, which is
21the sentence that you translate? Show me in the English?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. It continues: "Vis-a-vis the Jews I also had
23to remain inactive for a long time. I also had to remain
24inactive for a long time."
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Had to"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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