Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 207

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    On the contrary, an acquittal of what? I have made it
 1not informed on a particular phase of it is not
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, it is only four trains or whatever it is you are
 4talking about?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The fact it is now beginning in Berlin, and that it is
 6happening at this moment.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not a big point in your narrative?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The fact that I decided to write in the short form rather
 9than the long form part is part of the general tendency to
10books as short as possible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a complete non-point, is it not? Why on
12earth should it matter whether Hitler was informed about
13these four particular trains?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is really a non-point.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Thank you very much. No, I am sorry,
16Mr Irving, unusually I have made a concession that
17I should not have done. You take your Goebbels book
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is why I need a team of 40 people, because I do not
21have your memory.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Be glad you do not have my memory.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not done years of research on this subject, only a
24few months. 274 of Goebbels.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     274?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     374, I beg your pardon. After the bit you notice

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 1September 23rd?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is an asterisk, then there comes this: "Hitler had
 4confirmed to him that little by little all Jews were to be
 5expelled from Berlin Vienna and Prague, note 91"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please turn to page 642, note 91, diary September 24th,
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Very good. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Once your memory failed you did it not, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you had seen this entry?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Shot out of water on that one, I am afraid.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Why if it is not in historical terms a significant
15event, because you concede that Hitler had ordered the
16deportations generally from the Outreich and the
17Protectorate, and indeed from Berlin?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why bother to mention whether or not Hitler was consulted
20or informed?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     When you write paragraphs you should have a topic
22paragraph, a topic sentence beginning -- it is a
23literary -- not a ploy, a device, a literary device, at
24the beginning of a chapter you should have a topic
25paragraph at the beginning of a chapter and a topic
26sentence at the beginning of a paragraph. It is a way of

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 1helping the reader, a little clue to reader what is
 2following. So what matters in this paragraph is not that
 3opening floscal (?) as the Germans would say, not that
 4little opening throw away line, but what then follows,
 5which is the quotation from the table talk. I do not
 6blame you for concentrating on a throw away line, but I am
 7going to concentrate on the table talk which now follows.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This was by way of introduction to the table talk,
 9Mr Irving. It is a little point, but I am going to
10suggest at the end of this case that every time Hitler
11floats into the picture in your books, it is in order for
12him to be, as it were, conferred innocence.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Every time? Every time?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     More or less.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Ah.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is no point in putting in that sentence except to
17say "poor old Adolf did not know about this beastly
18business", yet again.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, have you ever written books that have to
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, as a matter of fact, I have.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not sure how well they sell.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Well, they are meant to be sold.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I had an exceedingly good American editor who taught me
25will over again how to write books, that is one of the
26things he taught me, always have a topic sentence at the

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 1beginning of a paragraph, that is what I would call a
 2topic sentence.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But where does the reader of "Goebbels" learn
 4this was all Hitler policy anyway to transport the Jews
 5out of the Reich?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is a question to you; where does the reader of
 8"Goebbels" learn that this was all Hitler policy anyway
 9to transport the Jews out of the German Reich?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably where I quote the Griser telegram --
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am sure, but where do you --
12 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I would have to look in the index.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- do not take time, you do somewhere refer to that
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I repeatedly say that on Hitler rests the initiative
16for ordering the expulsion, but what happens when they
17arrive there is the moot point.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I just does not have the reference in mind.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I will find it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is not an important point, and I apologise if
21I spent a bit too long on it, but there it is. It is the
22next part I am truly interested in. "Ten days after the
23forced exodus began [he, that is Hitler]
24referred ... (reading to the words) ... to the way the
25Jews had started this war. 'Let nobody tell me Hitler
26added that despite that we cannot park them in the

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 1marshier parts of Russia" By the way he added it is not a
 2bad thing that public rumour attributes to us a plan to
 3exterminate the Jews. He pointed out however that he had
 4no intention of starting anything at present. 'There is
 5no point in adding to one's difficulties at a time like
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am ready for you.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You may be ready for me in some sense or another,
 9Mr Irving; first can I ask you this; this is intended to
10suggest to the reader, is it not, (a) that there is no
11actual extermination planned at this point, it is only a
12matter of public rumour; and (b) that to do anything like
13that at this time would be to add to one's difficulties,
14or do you say "yes" simply adding to one's difficulties at
15a time like this?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Postpone it to the war is over, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pardon?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     To postpone it until the war is over to quote
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read this passage in Professor Evans' report?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No -- yes, I have, but that is not the translation I used.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans has his own clever translation of that
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course, he has, because he has done it correctly.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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