Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 207

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much, probably, that is all I need, thank
 2you, Mr Irving, Hitler, as we observed before is not on
 3trial here.
 4     Will you have a look with me, please, at an
 5earlier event, which is a table talk of Hitler's on the
 625th, it was your remark --
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     25th October 1941?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- that put me in mind. Here I am afraid we are going to
 9get involved in an argument about German grammar, but
10never mind, I think I can cope. On page 323 of Professor
11Evans' report, this comes from page 377 of Goebbels, under
12letter A. I will read what Professor Evans says:
13     "In his book "Goebbels" Irving comments on the
14deportation of Jews from Berlin, starting in October
151941: 'Hitler was neither consulted nor informed'.
16     As a matter of fact you know that to be untrue,
17do you not, Hitler was --
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I was reading Hitler --
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- I am so sorry, I quoted from the book. "Hitler was
20neither consulted nor informed".
21 A. [Mr Irving]     -- deported the Jews from Berlin -- I would need to read
22the whole paragraph I am afraid in my book before I allow
23a judgment on that one sentence.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. I will come back to that. That is a minor point.
25But if you like to we my be just to deal with this
26quickly. Perhaps we better have the Goebbels book to look

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 1at. It is page 377. Have you got your own copy there?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     300 and?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     377, chapter 43 entitled "Exodus". I will put it in
 4context by reading the top of the first complete
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     By Holocaust denier, David Irving, right?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving. "His mass expulsion of the Jews from
 8Berlin was beginning. On October 14th 1941 SS General...
 9signed the formal order as National Chief of Police and
10the deportations began the next day. 500 or 1,000 at a
11time, family by family, the Berlin Jews were rounded... in
12synagogue in ... loaded aboard passenger trains...
13freighting to the East."
14     Then you list some of the trains. "All four
15were bound for the ghetto at Lodz between October 18th and
16November 2nd confirmed Speyer's diaries, some 400,500
17Jews were'evacuated'" releasing to him... Gauleiter
18Goebbels one thousand ... (reading to the words) ...
19supposedly for bombed out Berliners ... went to their
20closest... Hitler was neither consulted nor informed";
21about what, Mr Irving?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     About --
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was he neither consulted nor informed?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     About this particular deportation phase, this wave of
25deportations from Berlin.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- can you turn on to page 330 of Professor Evans'

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     330?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     329. It is a few pages on from where we were, but keep
 4your finger where I was, paragraph 2:
 5     "As far as the expulsions are concerned,
 6Goebbels noted in his diary on 19th August 1941 that
 7Hitler had approved them in principle: 'Apart from...
 8Fuhrer gave me approval to ... (reading to the words) ...
 9as soon as first possibility of transport offered
10itself'." Is that a correct translation of what is in it
11Goebbels' diary?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is, it is also in my Goebbels biography.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not ask you that, is it a correct translation?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have answered my second question, and it is an entry
16of which you were aware?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then says Professor Evans this: "On 18th September 1941
19Himmler in fact had told his subordinate in the
20Warthegau"; that would be Griser (?) I suppose, would it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The --
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     -- well, no, Griser was not Himmler's subordinate. Griser
24(?) would have come directly under Hitler.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not matter. "Himmler in fact had told his
26subordinate... Fuhrer wishes the old Reich and the

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 1Protectorate to be ... (reading to the words) ... as
 2quickly as possible. I am thus aiming to transport the
 3Jews of the Old Reich and Protectorate if possible before
 4the end of this year into the eastern
 5territories ... (reading to the words) ... two years
 6ago... as a first step, in order to move them further
 7still to the east next spring." This is September 1941?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "One month later" says Professor Evans "on September 24th
101941 Goebbels noted in his diary that Hitler had made a
11final decision on the matter.
12     I can bring the Fuhrer... of internal political
13problems to decide upon: the Fuhrer is of the opinion
14that the Jews must be taken out of the whole of Germany
15bit by bit. The first... free of Jews are Berlin, Vienna
16and Prague... I have the hope that we shall succeed even
17in the course of this year in transporting a significant
18portion of Berlin's Jews off to the East."
19     Now I suppose you were aware of that entry too,
20were you not, Mr Irving?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You suppose wrongly, that was a diary entry which I have
22not got.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a diary entry you never had?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not got it, no, I have never seen it.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I think one has to look at page 374 of Goebbels. It
26may not be right.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought my memory was correct, September 23rd I have,
 2but not the 24th.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I think that is right.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is difficult for me to remember over the last ten years
 5to remember which entries I have seen and which I have
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would accept it in general that is probably right, you
 8have not seen this entry? Had you seen the Himmler note or
 9whatever it is?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you seen the Himmler document?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The Griser, yes, of course.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, right. It is very unlikely, is it not, that in the
14light of these two entries of 19th August by Goebbels and
1518th September by Himmler that Hitler did not know about
16the deportation?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, you are right, I should have phrased it differently,
18I should have said there is no evidence that Hitler was
19consulted or informed.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Little point in a way, Mr Irving, but again you see these
21points are cumulative. Perhaps significant, because once
22again you are giving Hitler a clear acquittal when the
23evidence is suggestive that he probably did know about it?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, an acquittal of what? I have made it
25perfectly plain beyond peradventure that Hitler gave the
26orders for the expulsion of the Jews. And the fact he was

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