Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 207

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 1 MR IRVING:     -- Solicitors are very anxious that they should not
 2be held to be in contempt.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can say now they will not be, as long as he
 4is here on February 7th at 10.30. You want to address the
 5court on the Anne Frank diary entry and on Goebbels diary.
 6 MR IRVING:     Yes, it is a little bundle of pages I gave you. You
 7will be relieved to hear that I only want to draw
 8attention to five or six passages in them.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment, would you, Mr Irving.
10What I am going to treat this as being, as your wishing as
11part of your evidence to amplify some of the answers you
12gave on Thursday. So I think it is best if you would do
13it from the witness box.
14 MR IRVING:     Very well, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may sound a bit of a quibble, but
16I think that is the right way of doing it. Is there
17anything else before you go back.
18 MR IRVING:     I think we have dealt with point 6 already, that is
19the point about Auschwitz.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Rampton, there is nothing else you
21want to raise?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Not in this letter, no.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or at all?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, there is. I have another letter from
25Mr Irving. It came on Saturday. I do not know if your
26Lordship has it.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I will do it, if I may, from memory. It looks
 3like that, it has two paragraphs. A very small point on
 4paragraph 1. Yes, of course, he can show it to people who
 5would help him answer the point, or deal with the point.
 6"I do not know about my friends", I suppose that means
 7"helpers". That is a very small point.
 8     There is a more serious point in the second
 9paragraph. The last sentence says: "Materials collected
10for the purposes of testing the witnesses' credibility and
11credentials will not be provided. If they are materials
12which have relevance to credit only, then that is
13perfectly correct, they need not be provided: If, however,
14they have relevance to the issues in the case then they
15must be provided.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving, I think that is right as a
17matter of law.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know what you are talking about when
20you refer to these materials.
21 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I can be more specific. We have obviously
22a number of experts who are assisting me with advice.
23Some of them have submitted lengthy letters to me, others
24have submitted expertise to me in more a formal form,
25which is very clearly of a nature designed to test the
26credit of the witness Professor van Pelt. My

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 1understanding of the law is that if it is designed to test
 2his credit then I do not have disclose it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is right.
 4 MR IRVING:     But it is very difficult to weed out from these
 5reports what is a test as to credit and what is --
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you have material which suggests that
 7Professor van Pelt is wrong about --
 8 MR IRVING:     Specific issues.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whatever it may be about maybe points he
10makes on the Leuchter report, something of that kind, then
11that plainly has to be disclosed. But if you have some
12sort of evidence suggesting that Professor van Pelt has an
13agenda of his own and has misconducted himself in some way
14as an expert, out of the context of this case,
15then I think you probably would not have to disclose
16that. That may not be a very clear guide to you --
17 MR IRVING:     We will do so with the utmost reluctance, but if it
18is the law, then we will do so. But it is rather like
19playing poker with the other person having a mirror over
20your head.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The short answer is, if it goes to the
22accuracy of his observations as an expert, as to what
23happened at Auschwitz, then I think you ought to disclose
24it. If it is just prejudicing him as an expert in the
25general sense, then I think not.
26 MR IRVING:     We will do so within 24 hours in that case.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Can I pick up one thing Mr Irving said there, it
 2shows not that he is trying to cheat, I do not mean that
 3at all, but he may be under a misapprehension about the
 4way litigation is conducted nowadays in these courts. He
 5said it is rather like playing poker when your opponent
 6has a mirror over your head, of course, litigation is not
 7poker any more. All the cards have to be on the table
 8anyway. It is like playing, what is the other game,
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, my comment on that in any case there are
11any aspersions being cast on me, I do not think any
12Defendant or any party in an action has ever made a fuller
13discovery than I have, including the disclosure of my
14entire diaries.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is fair, from my impression,
16I think that is right.
17 MR IRVING:     If I am hiding anything, I am hiding it in plain
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just mention only in passing something
20you might like to think about, it relates to the Goebbels'
21diaries, in Moscow, the Moscow archive. That looks as if
22it is going to be the subject of a certain amount of
23factual evidence. I have seen the way the pleadings go,
24and I have see what the Defendants are saying and what
25they are not saying I. Just wonder whether we are wise to
26spending very much time on that issue. I say that perhaps

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 1for Mr Rampton perhaps to think about.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     He has already thought so.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought he might have. In due course he can
 4tell me the result of his thoughts. It is just we have to
 5focus on what matters in this case. I understand your
 6complaint entirely, but in the end is it a matter we want
 7to spend a lot of time in evidence on?
 8 MR IRVING:     Two minutes is not a lot of time. In view of the
 9fact that the newspapers around the world from here to New
10Zealand have picked on the alleged discrepancies in the
11diary of December 13th has been proof once more of how
12David Irving cheated or suppressed. The Defendants have
13over the weekend retrieved from me the entire Goebbels'
14diaries which I obtained from Moscow I. Was going to draw
15your Lordship's attention to two pages of the diaries
16which I produced. We only had the section which I used.
17We only read that far.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you said that on Thursday. I think you
19are misunderstanding what I mean by the Goebbels' diaries;
20I am talking about the issue whether there was a breach of
21an agreement by you. I do not understand the Defendants
22even to be alleging that now. But Mr Rampton is going to
23think about it, and shall we leave with it him because
24I think the ball is really in his court. If you would
25like to come back we will resume your evidence.
26 MR IRVING:     

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