Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 151 - 155 of 207
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Most brutal means of getting people out? Using brute
2force, getting the Gestapo, dogs.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to see if I can find what word is attributed to
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know where that diary entry is.
6 MR RAMPTON: I do not either; that is the trouble.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it is going to matter very much
8because Mr Irving is making the point that in the end we
9are talking of getting them out of Europe and not anything
10else, so it does not really matter what word is used.
11That is what you are saying, Mr Irving, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving] Indeed, my Lord, yes, all that it is safe to say on the
14 MR RAMPTON: What he actually said I think was this or was
15recorded as having said. One must be careful. This is
16the Goebbels' entry: "Wir sprechen zum Schlub noch uber
17die Judenfrage" which means -- if you want to see it, it
18is on page 405 of ----
19 A. [Mr Irving] "Finally we speak on the Jewish question".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. "Hier bleibt der Fuhrer nach wie vor
21unerbittlich" -- relentless, unmerciless, is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving] "Vor unerbittlich", yes, merciless.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Merciless, yes. "Die Juden mussen aus Europa heraus"?
24 A. [Mr Irving] "The Jews have to get out of Europe".
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Wenn notig"?
26 A. [Mr Irving] "If necessary".
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Unter Anwendung der brutalsten Mittel"?
2 A. [Mr Irving] "With the employment of the most brutal methods" or
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] What is there in anything that you have seen in the
5evidence of this time to suggest that Hitler and Goebbels
6did not discuss the very questions raised by Goebbels'
7later diary note at that meeting of 19th March?
8 A. [Mr Irving] The fact that Hitler in the table talk which is recorded
9first person and I have seen the actual original paper,
10with Martin Bormann signing every single page in the
11bottom right hand corner as being an accurate record of
12what had been said, stated in the presence of people like
13Heydrich and Himmler at their table talk remarks which
14were only consistent with the knowledge that they were
15being physically and geographically expelled from Europe.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] He was muttering on about Madagascar in late July 1942?
17 A. [Mr Irving] He was also muttering on here, as you said, about Russia
18and the marshy swaps.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] We will come to your marshy swaps entry fairly soon,
20Mr Irving, but the references to Madagascar and Russia are
21perhaps in late 1942 are a complete nonsense; they cannot
22be taken seriously?
23 A. [Mr Irving] With all that mass of paper that we have, not only taken
24by Heydrich, but also by Rosenberg's Adjutant, who also
25wrote table talks, which I discover in the archives, with
26all this mass of paper of Hitler talking in private at
1this time I would just ask for one piece of sheet where he
2is explicitly saying "sure we are liquidating them".
3There is nothing. It is this negative mass of evidence,
4this absence of any evidence I find impressive. Even when
5he is in private talking to people who are actually doing
6the killing there is no such mention, on Hitler's part.
7I found that very disturbing.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You now know, of course, that is not right,
9do you not, because of the document we were looking at
11 A. [Mr Irving] Which document are you referring to, my Lord?
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Killing the Jews as if they --
13 A. [Mr Irving] December 1942 -- my Lord, tomorrow I will bring to you one
14of these irritating individual documents, 10th December
151942, the discussion between Himmler and Hitler on a
16proposal that they should sell their Jews to foreign
17customers, and Hitler saying: "Yes, this is quite all
18right, sell what you want. We want hard currency for
19them"; which is inconsistent with the desire to liquidate
20all the Jews at that very same time. It is a document not
21without evidentiary value in this particular argument.
22 MR RAMPTON: I think we are going to have to look at these
23table talks, I have quite a lot of them here, in some
24detail, probably tomorrow, Mr Irving. Your basis for
25saying that Goebbels privately knew more is simply that
26there is no document that you know of where Hitler says,
1I too know what Labotznich is doing in the East or
2whatever or I order him to do it?
3 A. [Mr Irving] -- there is no documentary evidence he derived any
4information from such reports as has obviously been shown
5to Goebbels, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] I still do not understand how that leads to the positive
7assertion that Goebbels obviously knew more.
8 A. [Mr Irving] Because there is a negative proof here, we have an absence
9of documents where there should have been documents to the
10contrary, with a huge volume of record of Adolf Hitler's
11remarks in later years, in 1942, September 1942 onwards,
12his war conferences were taken down verbatim, just like
13here. Every word he said and spoken to the shorthand
14reporters. We have the documents. We have the diaries.
15We have the table talks. We have Kopen's records, and yet
16nowhere is there any reference indicating that Hitler was
17privy to this kind of information. I say that with
18absolutely certainty you will not be able to prove me
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] I already have, Mr Irving, we have talked at some
21considerable length already about report number 51, have
23 A. [Mr Irving] That is why I refer to this as being an orphan, because it
24is so totally impossible to fit it into the general
25framework of all the other documentation which is of equal
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Therefore you jettison it?
2 A. [Mr Irving] Not at all. It frequently happens, probably in major
3court cases of a criminal kind too, that you have one item
4for which you cannot find a ready explanation, the whole
5of the rest of picture is -- there is this one which item
6which bothers you for the rest of your life. That item
7will bother me for rest of my life. But I am quite
8satisfied that all the other evidence I have; the table
9talks, the transcripts, the telegrams, the intercepts;
10which all fit into one general picture flowing one way,
11I am quite prepared to have one document flowing the other
12way, but that does not make me change my opinion.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, you have two more now that you did not know
15 A. [Mr Irving] Good.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] You have the Muller letter of 1st August 1941?
17 A. [Mr Irving] But that is only of very low evidentiary value purely
18saying Hitler wants to be told what is going on with
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] You cannot put things in isolation, as you keep telling
21me. You have to put that together with the report No. 51,
22and you have to put it together with the Himmler note,
23which is plainly a note of something Hitler said. You have
24to ask yourself the question; overall in the context of
25the whole of the evidence?
26 A. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton, if you were proposing --
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