Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 207

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    In my submission, my Lord, the way I used this material
 1venture to put this material to him, and he came back to
 2Berlin, dictated his diary reflecting, "Well, Hitler is
 3after all the champion and protagonist of radical
 4solutions, he is the one". But at the same time Hitler
 5is, apparently, talking about pushing them out and the
 6Madagascar solution, about pushing them out to Russia and
 7that kind of thing.
 8     This is the discrepancy in the records that you
 9are confronted with, as I say in the table talk passage
10that I insisted should be read out. This is a first
11person record taken by a qualified stenographer, Heinrich
12Heime, and the people who are present are the people who
13are actually conducting the massacre, Heinrich Himmler,
14and yet here is Hitler apparently saying something which
15is totally at variance with what is at that very moment
16happening. This is why it is so significant, my Lord,
17that how could, unless there is a lot of hypocrisy
18going on here, but for what purpose? These were Top
19Secret memoranda, taken down by Heinrich Heim, signed by
20Martin Bormann and then put in the files, the so-called
21table talk.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     You see, it is very easy to look at just one diary entry
24like the Goebbels' diary and mull backwards and forwards
25across that without realising that there is a lot of
26collateral evidence that reinforces the position one takes

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 1and how one edits it, which is not necessarily perverse
 2and certainly is not manipulation.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, it is difficult for me, without having
 4had a response from you to our various reports -- it is
 5not a criticism -- to know when I am looking at a
 6particular Goebbels' diary entry whether you have read
 7them or not as your reading seems per force to have been
 8somewhat selective. That is not a criticism either.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I have read the entire Goebbels' diaries as
10they were available on microfilm from left to right twice.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Once when they arrived in 1970, in other words, when
13I obtained them from the American archives, and once again
14when I wrote the Goebbels' biography in the late 1980s or
15early 1990s.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, I am not understanding, but I thought we had,
17unless I have gone completely mad, a discussion this
18morning about the entry for 13th December 1941?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That was not available. I am talking about the Goebbels'
20diaries when they were available. The Goebbels' diaries
21only became available, well, they became available in
22several chunks over the last 50 years.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So this is one you had read?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     March 27th 1942?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to have to ask you that question every time,
 2you see, when we look at these entries. It is one you
 3have read and you chose not to include the reference to
 4Hitler being the leader and spokesman of the radical
 5solution; instead, you included, if it was a question of
 6space, the last sentence, in your words, "The Jews have
 7nothing to laugh about now", did you not? You skipped
 8right down ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     "The Jewry had nothing to laugh about" in Evans' words,
10yes. Very similar.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. His translation is slightly better than yours ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Except it is less literate, less literary. Occasionally,
13when you make a translation for a book that will be
14published, you have to go for the literary rather than the
15wooden. This is a slightly more wooden translation.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is not an important point, but it is dangerous, is it
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I try to avoid wooden translations for documents if I am
19writing a book for publication. I try to put a literal
20translation. With Goebbels, it becomes very difficult
21because his diaries are written in a vernacular -- a lot
22of slang put in them.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do record fairly enough the diary entry of 20th March
24and the remark on 19th by Hitler -- I have it in here, it
25is at the bottom of page 464 -- "The Jews must get out of
26Europe. If need be, we must resort to the most brutal

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 1methods", do you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot find it in the book.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am so sorry. It is in the last paragraph on page 464.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     On March 19th he quoted in his diary, yes, that is right.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, only this remark.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "We must resort to the most brutal methods".
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In your first edition, you got the chronology wrong, did
 9you not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It is possible, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, you did. You said that Dr Goebbels' meeting with
12Hitler on 20th came after that entry of the 27th which we
13have been looking at.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is possible.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not a criticism, it is a fact, so nobody should
16confuse themselves by looking at the 1977 edition. Then
17you go on: "That Goebbels privately knew more is plain"
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- etc. What was the evidentiary foundation for the
21assertion that Goebbels plainly knew more?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Privately knew more.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That he privately knew more.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, than Hitler did.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He quoted a remark by Hitler that the Jews must get out.

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 1He privately knew more because the SD had sent to him,
 2Goebbels, the report on whatever is going on that beggars
 3all description, the killings at 40 per cent, 60 per cent.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am sorry about this. I am not trying to
 5rewrite history; I do not have to. I am trying to put
 6myself in the position of an historian who is writing an
 7account of these dark days, and sees that Hitler on 19th
 8when evidently he and Goebbels had had a meeting saying
 9that the Jews must get out of -- I will get it right --
10Europe. "If need be, we", that is the German government,
11"must resort to the most brutal methods ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     To get them out.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the most brutal way of getting somebody out,
14oustvotting somebody?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not. It is being knocked up at 2.00 or 3.00 in
16the morning by Gestapo hammering on your door and saying,
17"You have got 15 minutes to pack and come down to a
18central collecting point and then you are going to be put
19on a train with the aforementioned three tonnes of bread".
20That is a brutal means of getting people out in any
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a brutal means, but if we are going to be literal
23minded and go into the school room, we know that "most" is
24a superlative, do we not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the most brutal means of removing people?

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