Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 141 - 145 of 207
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Which I quoted in my book, of course.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] He talked about eliminating the Jewish bacillus on a
3number of occasions?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, or "combating" the bacillus rather than "eliminating"
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] What? Sometimes he uses the word "eliminierum" which I
7suppose means "eliminate". "No other government and no
8other regime could muster the strength for a general
9solution of the question. Here too the Fuhrer is the
10persistent and the word is "Vorkampfer"?
11 A. [Mr Irving] "Pioneer", yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pioneer?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is "protagonist" really, is it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving] Even better.
15 MR RAMPTON: "Protagonist"?
16 A. [Mr Irving] And it would be an accurate, a deliberate, 100 per cent --
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] And "Wortfuhrer", is that a spokesman?
19 A. [Mr Irving] "Champion".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] A "champion", yes, stronger than "spokesman" of a radical
21solution of the question -- sorry, "of a radical solution
22which is demanded by the way things are and thus appears
23to be unavoidable". You never in this book, or the
24previous edition of this book, make any reference to that
25statement by Goebbels about Hitler's position in this
26general solution, do you?
1 A. [Mr Irving] This is Goebbels reporting Hitler's position.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is indeed.
3 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but does it really advance our sum knowledge of what
4Hitler's position was?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Indeed it does, indeed it does, Mr Irving. It at least,
6one might put it like this, might lead one to be a bit
7cautious, might it not, about saying that Goebbels kept
8the ghastly truth from his leader, Adolf Hitler?
9 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I have a reason for saying that.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] What is that?
11 A. [Mr Irving] The fact that he never records in any of his diaries that
12he did and whenever he put suggestions to Hitler, then he
13records it in his diary. This is the subtle distinction.
14If you read all the diaries and not just one glowing ember
15which is thrust into your hands by one of your experts,
16when you are familiar with the entire diaries, then you
17know how to use them.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which is how, Mr Irving?
19 A. [Mr Irving] The way I just described to you. I would have been
20looking here for a passage where Goebbels then says,
21"I then put to the Fuhrer the proposal that we do, this,
22that and the other and Hitler agreed", but there is
23nothing of that. This is just Goebbels ranting on,
24happily coming back in the after glow of having sat with
25the Fuhrer, and once more the Fuhrer has put the
26gramaphone record on about the prophecy.
1 I mean, if I am an author of a book which has
2not got to be a two volume book, writing a book that is
3going to come down to a reasonable economic length, you
4have to make judgment calls on what you put in and what
5you take out. If something you are going to leave out
6does not really advance the argument one way or the other,
7then you leave it out.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] But, you see, your omissions of the Goebbels' references
9to Hitler are the omissions of all those references which
10put Hitler in a bad light?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Let me also put something in a legal sense. This entry
12can be held against Goebbels' evidence but not against
13Hitler, of course.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are not conducting a legal enquiry when we are writing
15a history book, Mr Irving, are we?
16 A. [Mr Irving] We are to a certain extent. The man, the people we are
17writing about are dead. They are entitled that we should
18marshal the same kind of criteria that we would in a court
19of law. We are looking at serious crimes that have been
20committed, indeed, the worst atrocities this last century.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am about a quarter of the way with
22you. I think the fact it does not come from the horse's
23mouth reduces its weight, but it has weight nonetheless?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Unquestionably it has weight, my Lord, but then you come
25up against the problems of the other weight, the weight of
26the tome you are writing; you are already facing a
1problem. I have had to shorten the book already down from
2the 1977 edition by approximately one-third in order to
3put the first volume in as well, and you have those weight
4problems you have also have tempo problems. You do not
5want to bog the whole text down by repeating yet again
6with has been said elsewhere. The fact that Adolf Hitler
7had planned a radical solution for the Jewish problem,
8whatever he meant by that, has been spelt out innumerable
9times elsewhere in the book.
10 What is far more interesting in this particular
11quotation, the real meat of this quotation is Dr Goebbels
12having learned somehow, presumably from an SS report, that
13what happened to the Jews in Lublin when they arrived, as
14I said, beggars all description, as a caption I have used,
15I believe, in the Goebbels' biography, where I quoted it
16at far greater length, my Lord. You will find I quoted it
17at far greater length in the Goebbels' biography because
18in the Goebbels' biography it is important. The material
19goes to what Goebbels' own knowledge was.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Will you forgive me, Mr Rampton, just to ask a couple of
21questions. If you look at that paragraph at the top of
22page 465, tell me if I am wrong, but it appears to me the
23point you are really conveying to readers there is that
24Goebbels did not discuss the disposal of the Jews or the
25realities of the disposal of the Jews ----
26 A. [Mr Irving] With Hitler?
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- with Hitler and, secondly, that Hitler was still
2talking about getting the Jews right out of Europe.
3 A. [Mr Irving] This is a very important point that I make, and he
4continues to say this ----
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] But if you look -- just let me complete the point, then
6add whatever you like -- at what Goebbels' diary actually
7records, it includes the phrase "The Fuhrer is the
8persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical solution
9which is demanded by the way things are and thus appears
10to be unavoidable"?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but what is ----
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] And Goebbels has referred earlier to only 40 per cent of
13the Jews being available for work, the rest being
15 A. [Mr Irving] In my submission, my Lord, the way I used this material
16was absolutely correct. I quoted the meat of the
17quotation from the diary, I quoted what we know from the
18diary about how far his conversation went with Hitler, but
19I certainly did not try to get cleaver in reading between
20the lines and suggesting that either he got this
21information from Hitler, which is most likely, he got it
22almost certainly in the form of a report, a so called
23esdebricht, the same as you have got the report from the
24Bunzig conference and so on; and that he then went to see
25Hitler and he sat basking in Hitler's glow for a while.
26They exchanged anti-Semitic remarks, but Goebbels did not
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