Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 207

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    "Early in March 1942, Heydrich held a second
 1be perpetuated in law. This classification process would
 2call for a colossal administrative effort, so the idea was
 3shelved. A subsequent memorandum in Reichjustice ministry
 4file cited this highly significant statement by Hans
 5Lammas headed 'The Reich Chancellory', 'The Fuhrer has
 6repeatedly stated that he wants ... (reading to the words)
 7... After the war they might be allocated a remote
 8territory like Madagascar as a national home."
 9     Much of that, Mr Irving, we are going to come
10back to later on. This is the bit. I read that by way of
11chronological introduction:
12     "Dr Goebbels, agitating from Berlin, clearly
13hoped for a more speedy and ruthless solution although he
14held his tongue when meeting his Fuhrer. On March 19th he
15quoted in his diary only this remark by Hitler: 'The Jews
16must get out of Europe. If need be, we must resort to the
17most brutal methods'. That Goebbels privately knew more
18is plain from his diary entry on 27th. 'Beginning with
19Lublin', he recorded, 'The Jews are being pushed out
20eastwards from the General Government. A barbaric and
21indescribable method is being employed here and there is
22not much left of the Jews themselves. By and large, you
23can probably conclude that 60 per cent of them have to be
24liquidated while only 40 per cent can be put to work."
25     "Dr Goebbels recorded further that ... (reading
26to the words) ... And the cycle started over again. 'The

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 1Jews have nothing to laugh about now' commented Goebbels,
 2but he evidently, never discussed these realities with
 3Hitler. Thus, this two-faced minister dictated after a
 4further visit to Hitler on April 26th: 'I have once again
 5talked over the Jewish question with the Fuhrer. His
 6position on this problem is merciless. He wants to force
 7the Jews right out of Europe. At this moment Himmler is
 8handing the major transfer of Jews from the German cities
 9into the eastern gettoes."
10     Now, you cited two Goebbels' entries there in
11part, and you make it clear that it is only in part. The
12first question, for the entry of 27th March 1942, had you
13read the whole of the entry?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I did, and I read it not only in the original paper
15diaries in the Hoover Library in California where that
16particular page is now kept, the original, I also read it
17on microfilm in the American national archive's version
18that was microfilmed in 1947 because, obviously, this was
19a very contentious entry and a lot of right wing radicals
20tried to make out that this was a fake entry in some way,
21and that the CIA or the OSS or someone had dumped it, had
22inserted it into the Goebbels' diaries. When I went to
23Moscow, that was one of the first plates I looked for,
24just to complete the circle of evidence that it was a
25genuine entry. So I read it many times.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have, so you have read the whole of that entry?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, indeed.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, then could I ask that Mr Irving be given ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course there is much more to than that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Can I ask Mr Irving be given Professor Evans'
 5report, please?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You may already have it. I think it is
 7coming up from behind.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     What about the entry of 26th April?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You want me to find a particular page in the report first.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think Mr Rampton wants to know whether
11you have read it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, of course. I read that one on microfilm because
13I have the entire diaries that were then available on
14microfilm since 1970 about, my Lord.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to ask you if you will to look at the
16translation (and the German is set out there too) at page
17400 of Professor Evans' report?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Are we going to challenge my translation or just the
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, do not leap ahead, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I need to know what I am looking at.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You fall at the fences if you do that. Could you just
23read to yourself, either way round, it matters not to me,
24first of all or second of all, the English and the German
25to yourself. I want you to say whether you think the
26translation is a fair one.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the translation?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you know the German very well, but I would like
 3you to see whether you agree or not that Professor Evans'
 4translation is a fair one, then we can all get on with the
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, let us assume that it is a fair translation. If I
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that may save time in the end,
 9I suspect, because you are going to come to particular
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I do not want to ask questions about a
12passage in English which the witness may dispute. That is
13all. Your quotation if you still have it open on page
14464 ----
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- stops, I think, well, as a direct quote it stops,
17first of all, in the penultimate line of page 464 as a
18direct quotation?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then you go on to report the next sentence in Goebbels'
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carefully and unobtrusively you say Professor Evans that
24does not work too conspicuously?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not think you have got any of the rest of it?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It is pure Goebbels' waffle, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     If you have the read Goebbels' diaries, you know he
 4waffles endlessly. He is dictating to a diligent
 5manservant who takes down everything he dictates. He
 6waffles. If he was writing this in handwriting, he would
 7have done it in half the length. It is the old Goebbels'
 8gramophone record that he is putting on again.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a reference, if you can go back, please, to
10Professor Evans' version, again to the Reichstag prophecy,
11is there not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And he says "that prophecy is beginning to realize itself
14in the most terrible manner"?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And must not allow any sentimentalities to rule in these
17matters. If we did not defend ourselves against them, the
18Jews would annihilate us. It is a struggle for life and
19death between the areas and race and the Jewish
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, "the Jewish bascillus" was not Goebbels' ugly concept
23but Hitler's, was it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct. Hitler repeatedly, particularly in 1941
25onwards, started talking about the Jewish bacillus.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did indeed.

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