Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 207

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    Yes, and it is amazing that I was first person who ever
 1made use of these.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving, great credit for that, but the fact is
 3that you had before you the evidence if you had cared to
 4look at it?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I disapprove of the word "cared". Your use of the word
 6"care" implied that I perversely and deliberately and
 7following an agenda misread the word when, quite clearly,
 8I did not. Quite clearly, that is a reasonable reading of
 9that word, and as soon as the improper reading of the word
10was brought to my attention, I immediately changed it. It
11is the kind of thing that, unfortunately, happens when you
12work from original records and not from sitting in book in
13a book-lined cave which is what most of the academics and
14scholars do.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, Mr Irving, this is either deliberate or it was a
16mistake of the most colossal magnitude for a proper
17historian, was it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It was a mistake of a pathetic magnitude, less than 10
19cents would I give for that mistake, Mr Rampton, less than
2010 cents on a scale of 1 to $10.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, when you are trying to exonerate Hitler by saying
22that Himmler sent an order the next day to say the Jews
23were to stay where they were? Come on, Mr Irving.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me. This is not that page. This is the page
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you run the two together in the same passage in your

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, are you implying that the strength of that
 3paragraph has been diminished by one jot, by one comma, by
 4the omission of this sentence? Of course not.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, the strength of it is increased by the inclusion of
 6that sentence is what my suggestion is.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But it has not been diminished by the omission of the
 8sentence in any way at all.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not my suggestion.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     In fact, we have even better material to replace it with.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My suggestion is this, that wherever you can, you distort
12the material before you so as to put Adolf Hitler in the
13clear so far as you possibly can. It is quite clear.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The use of the word "distort" implies that this was a
15wilful misreading, and that is an interpretation which
16I reject here most emphatically and under oath.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, issue is well and truly joined on that,
18is it not, now so...
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think, my Lord, I will bring back tomorrow the bound
21volume of the Himmler diaries on which I worked. I will
22lay the actual volume before your Lordship.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It will look very similar to page 13, will it
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It will, indeed, my Lord, but in view of the fact that
26they appear to hang their whole case on this misreading.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I do not think I would go that far.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, I do not think you should make that
 3assumption, Mr Irving.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway we have got the ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Mr Rampton keeps on coming back to it like a dog
 6that keeps on digging up an old bone.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- question and the answer.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I have had the great good fortune,
 9Mr Irving, to learn how to read Himmler's handwriting last
10night or whenever it was, Friday maybe, which you already
11knew. Now I want to turn aside or I want to go into the
12future, rather. Can you have your Hitler's War book of
131991, please?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which part?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Part 2, my Lord. Please turn to page 464. My
16Lord, I had better read from the beginning of where the
17text comes out of quotation.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
19 MR RAMPTON:     "Given his table company", that is Hitler's table
20company, "Himmler, Lammas and Colonel Hanzeitzer on this
21occasion, this is surely a significant private discourse
22by the Fuhrer"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Would it not be more to point to read the paragraph?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not really going to ask you about that, but I will if
25you want me to?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Please do.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On January 25th, we are in 1942, are we not? It starts at
 2the bottom of 463, my Lord.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you going to be discussing the Roman Jews
 4at this point?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I really do not think, Mr Irving, it is going
 7to be relevant. We will obviously read anything that you
 8think is relevant but I do not think ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is just a passage that is incompatible with the
10notion that Adolf Hitler was simultaneously giving orders
11for the liquidation of Jews.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, well, let us have it. I was
13trying to save time.
14 MR RAMPTON:     We are going to have to come back to it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Because again it is, what shall we say, to put it
17neutrally at the moment, it is another crass error
18by Mr Irving ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Another.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- so we say. "Hitler reflected out loud: 'If I extract
21the Jews today, our citizens get uneasy, what is happening
22to him then, but did these same people care one hoot what
23happened to the Germans", in italics, "who had to
24emigrate. We've got to get it over fast. It is no better
25to pull out a tooth a bit at a time over three months.
26Once it is out, the agony is over. The Jews have got to

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 1get out of Europe, otherwise we'll never reach a European
 2consensus. He is the worst troublemaker everywhere and
 3really aren't I, in fact, terrifically humane? During the
 4... ceremony in Rome the Jews were maltreated. Up to
 51830 they hounded eight Jews through the city on asses
 6every year. All I say is he has got to get out. If he
 7drops ... in the process, I can't help it. I do see one
 8thing, however, their total elimination, absolute
 9ausrotung, if they won't leave willingly.
10     "Given his table company, Himmler, Lammas and
11Colonel Hanzeitzer on this occasion, this is surely a
12significant private discourse by the Fuhrer. On January
1327th, he repeated the same arguments over dinner to a
14different audience, 'The Jews have got to get out of
15Europe. The best thing would be for them to go to Russia.
16I have no sympathy with the Jews'
17     "Three days later speaking in the Berlin Sport
18Palaste he reminded his audience of his prophetic warning
19to the world's Jews in 1939.
20     "Early in March 1942, Heydrich held a second
21interministerial conference to examine the awkward problem
22posed by half and quarter Jews. If allowed to remain,
23they might, perhaps, be sterilised. The top level
24opinion, i.e. Hitler, is quoted to the effect that they
25must draw a sharp distinction between Jews and non-Jews as
26it would not be acceptable for a mini race of semi Jews to

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