Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 207

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    You have also mistranscribed "truppen" of "truppenschule",
 1have you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Those are the only words you have mistranscribed. The
 4"haben" is now correct?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I have only just spotted the "lappenschule"" was
 6mistranscribed as well, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is right. Take the first line. Look at your
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The word is "recrutenzahlen" which is numbers of recruits,
11perhaps, is it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at the German, the manuscript?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The "U" has a thing like a hockey stick over the top of
16it, does it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the word, third line, which you transcribe as
19"ulab vager"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The small "b" at the end "ulab" looks like a small "b",
22does it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Look likes a small B?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is like an ordinary schoolboy "b", is it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the "U" in the next line in "tabung", again it has

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 1that scallop on top of it, has it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the word in the next entry which is a single entry
 4"flieger mel dingung"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the "D"; it has a loop on the top, has it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, if you look two lines down, please, at "executionen",
 8and on "executionen" there appears to be no little hat on
 9the U.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That may be, Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That rather destroys the point you are trying to make.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not try to always second guess me; it does not really
13help. It just slows things down.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just trying to help court.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Flieger mel dingung" has both the loop on the "D" and the
16little sign on top of the U, has it not?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not umlaut sign, is it?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not. It is to distinguish the "U" from the "N"
19in handwriting in German.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Then the next line where there is an entry against
21the name of Heydrich in Prague?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Schreibdamen", you have both the "B" and the "D" there,
24have you not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The ordinary "B" and the "D" with the loop?

.   P-127

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the last H of "Heydrich"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It looks like a capital J in English, does it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the first line of the entry against "Pohl Bezuch",
 7that has the little scallop on it, has it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then "Lappenschuhe"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     L-A-P-P-E-N-S-C-H-U-H-E?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Both the "H"s look like "J"s, do they not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but they appear to have no scallop on the "Uhe".
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is difficult to tell because the "G", or whatever it
16is, of whatever the "zu", I think it is, the Z loop has
17come down on to the U, has it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not see any scallop.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Check it against the good copy and you will see that it
20has. It matters not very much.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am checking the good copy; but there is no scallop on
22the "executionen" and quite clearly there is nothing on
23the "U" on that one.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you have transcribed both those "H"s which look just
25like "J"s to the English eye correctly as "H"s?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-128

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is no scallop on the word you transcribe as "Juden"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You must have known the first letter was an "H" and not a
 4"J", and it must be quite certain that you knew that the
 5third letter was not a "D"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, this is a sterile exercise. We are looking at
 7a page that was not lying in front of me. The page that
 8was lying in front of me was the one that was in my
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what I have been looking at. I have been doing
11this by using your copy.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you had this as a cheat, did you not?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not have this as a cheat.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at your own copy. Ignore the good copy. That is
16just so everybody shall not think I am making it up.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This is what we call a cheat.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, you think so?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would not have given you the good copy in that case.
21Look at the right-hand column. Look, for example,
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That, even in your fairly poor copy, loop on the "D" is as
25clear as daylight, is it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-129

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at "schreibdamen", the "b" and "d" both together?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So if you wanted to be sure what that word was at the
 4beginning of the indent against the "Pohl" entry ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- you could tell perfectly well that it must be a "B"
 7and not a "D".
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You have the great advantage of hindsight, of course. You
 9know what the word should read and now you can read it.
10I did not know what the word should read. I had this
11very, very poor copy to work from.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Every time that Heinrich Himmler writes the letter "d" in
13lower case, he puts that loop on it, does he not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so; not even on the one at 1315 on the
15left-hand column. I cannot see the loop on that. But
16I can only repeat I regard this (and you will disagree
17with me) as a very sterile exercise. You are looking at
18the quality of photocopy that was not in front of me.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not. I am looking at this wretched thing that you
20handed out yesterday.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, indeed, but you had the benefit of this now to tell
22you which letters are which.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As a matter of fact, Mr Irving, I had the benefit of
24somebody who had bothered to learn how to read Heinreich
25Himmler's handwriting which you had too. Had you not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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