Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 207

<< 1-5206-207 >>
    -- we have done that one, Mr Irving, I will not pick up
 1the conflict again. I would not be allowed it anyway.
 2     I want to ask you this about your Mi Li remark,
 3which I have now lost, of course. We have to accept that
 4there were Mi Li types massacres. You have accepted it
 5was wrong. You could have found out that it was wrong
 6before you made it, could you not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     -- find out what was wrong?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The characterization of these organized, systematic
 9shootings known to Berlin in the East of the eastern Jews;
10the characterization of those Mi Li type massacres was
11wrong, you have accepted it was wrong, and you could have
12known it was wrong before you made that --
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think to be more specific, there were Mi Li type
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- I am sure there were?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     But there were also others that were clearly on orders
17from above.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not want to go back over old ground again.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But my question was not that to which you gave an answer;
21my question was, you had the means of knowing it was wrong
22before you said it, did you not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     What would those means have been?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You could have done the same research in the EMs going
25back to Berlin as everybody else has done?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think everybody else does done it for a start;

.   P-121

 1secondly, I am not a Holocaust historian, as I keep
 2reminding the court.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then why are you discussing it here and why are you making
 4a categorical assertion that they were simply unauthorized
 5gangster killings?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am being asked by a member of the audience my opinion on
 7this and I am giving the opinion based on my knowledge at
 8that time.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I want to come to something different that arises from
10some things you were saying on Thursday. I promised you
11that I would come back to it and I will. It is Hitler's
12log note, telephone log note, of the 30th --
13 A. [Mr Irving]     November 1941.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- yes. It has to do with the manuscript, not the sense,
15the manuscript, and your transcription of the
16word "haben -- "
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This is December 1st?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     November 30th 1941.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     December 1st 1941?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There was a copy of it -- December 1st, you are quite
21right, I got the wrong date. There was a copy of it in
22your little bundle, my Lord, at the back of J3.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     December 1st.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got it, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No.

.   P-122

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We all know it by heart by now?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I know it by heart.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     No, for this purpose the witness will need the
 4actual copy.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got that little clip?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No my Lord I no longer have it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there a spare copy? Bundle C.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought we had passed on from this matter.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No, because I promised you that I did not accept
10that that you made an honest mistake in the transcription
11of that word "haben" and if I had any more to say about it
12I would come back to it, and that is what I am now going
13to do.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 13, I think.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 14 is the transcript. Sorry is the
16photograph and page 13 is the transcript.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have it.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I am going to do something else, if I may, Mr Irving.
19I am going to pass up to you, and to his Lordship a
20somewhat better copy than the one you gave us.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Which is completely immaterial, of course.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say, but you may not think that when you have heard
23how I am going to use it.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we slot this into ----
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- that file?

.   P-123

 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. 13A, my Lord, says Miss Rogers. I will just
 2ask you, I am not going to ask you any questions about
 3that at the moment, I want to ask you some preliminary
 4questions. Your copy which we find at page 14 of your
 5little bundle ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- was taken from what?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     From a microfilm.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From a microfilm. Look at the one I have just handed in.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a copy taken from a microfilm too, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I will take your word for that, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it looks like it, does it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Except there is a distinction. There is a handwritten
15No. 318 on the top right-hand corner.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is as may be but the fact that it is ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No, that implies that it is taken at a different time and
18also what looks like a staple in the top left-hand corner.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but the fact that it is white on black, Mr Irving,
20suggests that it is a photocopy taken from a microfilm
21negative, does it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but not from the microfilm that you obtained from me.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How did you make your photocopy that we have here?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I took it to a Messrs Rank Xerox Limited who ran it off on
25a copy flower machine about 20 years ago.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ran what off?

.   P-124

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The microfilm.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The microfilm?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     They printed it out and then chopped it up and I sent it
 4to be bound.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What I have here, is that as good as it gets or is the
 6original ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I had the actual bound volume in court with me
 8last week and that was what I operated from. This is a
 9photocopy from that bound volume which is as good as it
10got. I am quite happy to bring it into court again
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it may not be necessary. I would say I hand up the
13better copy, only for the purposes of checking it in case
14you do not agree with what I am going to ask you. Can you
15have out your English -- sorry, your typescript transcript
16of the manuscript?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the previous page.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 13?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 13?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I think I am right, am I not, that there are only
21two words in the whole of this transcript which you have
22mistranscribed? One is, well, you have altered the
23"haben" from "Juden". You have made it into "haben", you
24tell us?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

.   P-125

<< 1-5206-207 >>