Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 207

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    The second paragraph indicates that I was methodically
 1Institute of Historical Review, as you know.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, because in D3(i) at I suppose tab 30, there is a
 3transcript, I think we looked at this for another purpose
 4not long ago, page 18, could you turn to, it is marked
 5twice, in tab 30 of this file, we start at the beginning,
 6so we see what it is. It is headed "the suppressed
 7Eichmann and Goebbels papers David Irving presented at the
 811th IHR conference October 1992", the date is correct, is
 9it, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now can you turn to the page marked 172 with a stamp or 21
12in print.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you say this in the last paragraph: "Now you probably
15know that I am a revisionist to a degree, but I am not a
16revisionist to the extent that I say there were no murders
17of Jews. I think we have to accept", can I pause there
18and ask you why you use that form of words, "we have to
20 A. [Mr Irving]     The general public has to accept.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should not the general public accept? There is bags
22of evidence for shootings of Jews, is there not? Do
23I sense a some feeling of reluctance in that form of
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not consider a film with Robert Mitchum called "War
26of Remembrance" to be evidence which the general public

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 1should necessarily accept.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I repeat my question "in the form of words I think we
 3have to accept"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do I sense a note of reluctance in that?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No, not at all. What you have also to remember I was
 7speaking to an audience largely comprised of revisionists
 8who are loath to accept this kind of thing, so I am saying
 9to them --
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say "we" not "you"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am part of this audience, I am part of this -- part of
12this function.
13 MR RAMPTON:     You are really meaning, are you not --
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- we, the revisionist movement?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- have, and I insert the words, Mr Irving, reluctantly
18got to accept --
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me, I did not say "reluctantly got to".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- you do not accept that is the sense of it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Not at all. What I am saying quite clearly here is that
22that let us get one thing quite plain, we have to accept
23there were these mass murders on the Eastern Front.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So we may not wish to do?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     These are your interpolations --
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, they are --

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     -- manipulations and distortions --
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- I was making a suggestion about what was in your mind
 3when you spoke to this like-minded audience.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     -- so are you now a mind reader, Mr Rampton.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you said it was a conference of revisionists?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I assume --
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is made, we have the answer.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The more often your Lordship pushes me in that way
 9the happier I shall be.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hope you will not take it unkindly.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Of course not. I am, as your Lordship knows, very
12used to do jury actions and sometimes old habits die hard
13that is all it is.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is an understandable lack of
16 MR RAMPTON:     You go on. I think we have to accept there were
17Mi Li type massacres, where SS officers, the
18Einsatzgruppen commanders, did machine gun hundreds, if
19not thousands of Jews -- oh hundreds if not thousands,
20sorry, I must get it right, did machine gun hundreds if
21not thousands of Jews into pits on the Eastern Front at
22Riga at Minsk and at other locations, this kind of thing
23did happen?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I think quite clearly this is not hundreds of
25thousands, I mean this is...
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not hundreds of thousands?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I mean the evidence I have given is quite clearly we are
 2talking about hundreds of thousands, not just hundreds or
 3thousands in cases ----
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We do not need the hundreds, do we?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Hundreds of thousands.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think Mr Irving is saying it is a misprint
 7or whatever the word is he said and what he meant was
 8hundreds of thousands not if not thousands?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Because if at this meeting I have read out the Bruns'
10report where alone several thousand people were machine
11gunned into one pit one could not talk about hundreds.
12 MR RAMPTON:     This is one of these speeches, presentations
13lectures, I do not know, that you will have approved
14before it went into print in this whatever it is?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     This is correct, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Never mind, it is a small point.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The main point is this, Mr Irving, this is another
19statement in exactly the same vein as the statements you
20made at Brisbane in 1986, is it not, Mi Li type massacres?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I am being accused of being consistent, am I?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, you are, you are accused of consistently and
23knowingly reducing the extent of the responsibility for
24these massacres?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you accept that charge, or not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Trying to identify the responsibility, yes. On the basis
 2of very meagre evidence.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The words "Mi Li type massacres" mean this, do they not,
 4to any educated or half educated audience, these massacres
 5were done by criminal gangers unauthorized in the East
 6without the approval, consent or knowledge of the people
 7in Berlin?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is correct, and it was wrong, was it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That was wrong, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you knew that it was wrong?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I did not, not at this time.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not in 1992?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When did you learn that it was wrong, Mr Irving?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I suppose once I began studying the documents for this
17case in detail, and we started looking at the individual
18documents of the kind we have been looking at in court
19today that becomes quite plain.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry. Yes, I did not mean to interrupt.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It becomes quite plain that there was a co-ordination,
22there was a degree of direction. For example, the
23killings in the Eastern territory - in the Baltic
24provinces which carried out admittedly by the local
25populations, the SS were told to join in and help and it
26turned a blind eye. So there was a lot of nodding and

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