Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 207

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And that is completely contrary to what you are saying to
 2these Australians, is it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     In 1986?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Where I said mind that it was the mindless killers on the
 6Eastern Front who did the killing?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "These men acted on their own impulse, their own
 8initiative", that means without orders, does it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     When we are talking about the German Jews?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, we are not.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we are not there.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do not know because we have only been given these
13fragments of a transcript.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, just focus on the question. What is being put is that
15what you said in 1986 about these men on the Eastern front
16having acted on their own impulse is at any rate now known
17by you not to be right because, in fact, it was authorised
18at the highest level, namely by Hitler?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     What was authorized, my Lord? The killing of Jews, the
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, you accepted that, I thought, a few minutes ago.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The Jews to be liquidated as partisans, 16th December, the
23conversation, yes. If we can expand that very meagre
24note, that skimpy note, into that interpretation which I
25think is a legitimate expansion, certainly Hitler
26sanctioned the killing of the Jews on the Eastern Front,

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 1all the rest Jews, the non-German Jews, and that has never
 2been a matter contention for me.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think what is being suggested is that what you said in
 41986 can now be seen to be wrong because you were
 5suggesting in 1986 that these killings on the Eastern
 6Front of Jews was done on the initiative of the commander?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     They acted on their own impulse and their own initiative,
 8yes, but, clearly, you cannot have the systematic killings
 9without the people on the Eastern Front who are willing to
10kill. It is no use having a killing system if you have
11not got mindless killers out there who are prepared to do
12the killing. This is an attempt, really, to explain the
13mentality of the people who are doing the killing on the
14Eastern Front.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I will put the question one more time, then I will
16leave it and I will tell you where to find the full
17transcript of this press conference or as such of it as we
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think I would like to read the whole transcript
20rather than just fragments.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You should and I tell you so if you want to glance at it
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Because both Evans and Browning have a habit of not even
24indicating where they have left out whole sentences.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They can answer for themselves in due course.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans on one occasion left out three sentences,

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 1eight full stops, three semi-colons and 86 words.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to make a joke about that and say "Good Evans!"
 3Maybe we can get on, Mr Irving. My suggestion is this,
 4that those words you used in Australia on those two
 5occasions in 1986 (and it maybe we shall find some others,
 6I do not know) are apt to suggest to the audience that
 7this killing of the Eastern Jews on a vast scale went on
 8without the knowledge or approval of Hitler and his
 9cronies, all of them, in Berlin?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If that impression is given, it is the wrong impression.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     By me, quite clearly.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that a convenient break?
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, yes, thank you.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     2 o'clock.
16 (Luncheon adjournment)
17MR DAVID IRVING, recalled
18Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON QC, continued
19 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, can I make one small correction?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am wrong about one point on that German, the date line,
22where it says "am", I am informed that in certain regions
23of Germany it is proper to use "am"; it is a dialect.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am not surprised to hear you say so,
25thank you for that correction.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, before lunch we looked at some remarks
 2that you had made to audiences in Australia in 1986.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     14 years ago.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 14 years ago. Do you take any point on the fact that
 5those remarks were made 14 years ago?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I just wanted to emphasise the fact these remarks were
 7made 14 years ago.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I now show you something you said in October 1992.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. My Lord, Mr Irving will need bundle D5(ii),
11and D3(i).
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry D5 I have not got.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Well --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, have not got here.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you, no. My Lord, I think we can supply
16everybody with a copy.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     D5?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     D5(ii), page 25, I have the copy loose. I think this is a
19wrong reference, I am afraid.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think it must be.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am looking, Mr Irving, I will tell you what I am
22looking for. I am looking at the wrong thing anyway.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it a transcription of a speech?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No, it should be a letter from Mr Marcellus dated
2516th January 1992. We cannot ----
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is on page -- it is page 141, identified as No. --

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 1It is in the section after tab 29.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     At page, handwritten bottom right 28.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is -- handwritten at the bottom, 26. . "Dear Tom".
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has the judge got that?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, not yet.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Alternatively 25, 25 is a longer letter. It is a fax.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     The reference was right. Does your Lordship have
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have now.
12 MR RAMPTON:     It is a fax, is it not?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I was looking at this very letter only last night, in
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. I am only interested in the last part of this for
17the moment. Right at the end, you say this: "My position
18remains unchanged, that there were certain Mi Li type
19atrocities by troops in Russia, that the gas chambers and
20factories of death are Hollywood legends and that there is
21no wartime evidence of a Hitler order that what I consider
22in these papers is 'hearsay'." This was, was it, in
23preparation for an IHR conference that year, do you think?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The second paragraph indicates that I was methodically
25working my way through the Eichmann papers and evaluating
26them, planning perhaps to do something with them at this

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