Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 204

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    Well, I do not think it is. It is an edition
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow.
 3 THE WITNESS:     We also have a date on that, January 1989.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Two dates '76 and '89.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That answers the point.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Two editions.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Anyhow, if you look at the footnotes in the right
 8hand column on page 415, footnote 7 says this: "The most
 9spine chilling account of... methodical mass murder of
10these Jews [that is the Berlin Jews] at Riga is
11in ... 1158 in file etc. in the Public Record Office,
12Major General Bruns, an eyewitness, describes it to fellow
13generals in British captivity in April 25th 1945 unaware
14that hidden micro phones are recording every word. Of
15particular significance his qualms about bringing what he
16had seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the latter's [that
17is Hitler's] renewed orders that such mass murders were to
18stop forthwith"?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As an account of what Bruns is recorded as having said
21that is completely dishonest, is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Does it say that the Bruns account is the only source for
23that final paragraph, that final sentence?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It purports to be an account of what Bruns said, does it
25not, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It references the Bruns' file as the source of that

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 1material in the main text, and it adds the comment: "Of
 2particular significance his qualms about bringing about
 3what he has seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the
 4latter's renewed orders that such mass murders were to
 5stop forthwith". In other words, that was of particular
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of particular significance in the Bruns's eyewitness
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not say that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Read it through to yourself again.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Read it through.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And consider that answer, Mr Irving.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Of the particular significance his qualms about bringing
14what he had seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the
15latter's renewed orders that such mass murders were to
16stop forthwith. I see no objection to that as being an
17encapsulated version of Bruns's report -- may I read out
18from the Bruns' report the sentences on which I would
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, you may not, Mr Irving. I would like you to
21read the whole of that footnote and I shall repeat my
22question, and we will have a "yes" or "no" if you please.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     You will not let me read out these sentences in the Bruns
24report on which I rely?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In a moment. Just do what Mr Rampton is
26asking at the moment.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well. "The most spine killing account --"
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, read it to yourself.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I did not mean.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, because I am accused of being a Holocaust denier it
 5is interesting that I am repeatedly saying this kind of
 6thing, including in journals like this. You do not me
 7read it out loud?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like you to read it yourself.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You do not want public to hear what I wrote.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has just been read out.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have read it.
12 MR RAMPTON:     You have read it. Now I will repeat my question;
13do you not agree that read as a whole, as one most read it
14as a whole, not selecting those little bits which one
15would rather ignore, and you are relying on the ones you
16want to be heard, reading that as whole, do you not agree
17that that is a singularly dishonest account of what Bruns
18was recorded as having said?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not agree.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I now draw attention to the sentences in the Bruns
22Report on which I rely?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whatever you wish in answer to my question.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I will summarize them and you can tell me if it is a false
25summary. They had difficulty, he did not want to write
26the report himself, he persuaded a junior army officer to

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 1go down the road and have a look and come back and write
 2up what he had seen. The question then was who is going
 3to bring it to the Fuhrer's attention; they work out a way
 4to bring to the Fuhrer's attention involving Vice-Admiral
 5Canaris, shortly the orders come back, such mass murders
 6have to stop. Am I totally wrong in drawing the perfectly
 7justified inference that as a result of this army
 8officer's report being drawn to the Fuhrer's attention the
 9orders come, which we have seen in the intercepts that
10such mass murders have to stop.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can I put it to you straight, as
12it were, because this is the suggestion.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That what you have said as being of particular
15significance, namely the renewed orders that such mass
16murders were to stop forthwith, totally perverts the sense
17of Bruns' conversation in captivity because Bruns makes
18clear that Altemeyer said that the killings were to
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have explained the reason why I discounted that
21part of his remark, my Lord, this was the...
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but are you giving particular significance to a
23proposition which is the opposite of what one finds in the
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The decision of the little man on the spot in Riga is of
26no significance to the argument that Hitler had given the

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 1order quite clearly that such killings had to stop.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Have I made it plain, my Lord.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, you have.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you. I think that --
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Do you think, Mr Irving, that if General Bruns
 7were here today he would think what you have done with
 8what he said was fair and honest?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     -- taken in elements, stage by stage, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you? I see. You said it again in that same file you
11have got there, I think it is at -- it is at tab 30, this
12is a paper, I think, presented by you at the Institute of
13Historical Review, a talk given by you?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     A talk?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, a talk, in October 1992, and the passage which
16matters is again an account of the Bruns evidence on page
1724, ignore the stamped number at the bottom of page, 24 of
18the article. I think this is an answer to a question very
19likely. Yes, it is. It is in the bottom part of the
20left-hand column on that page' does your Lordship have it?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have.
22 MR RAMPTON:     This is the last thing, my Lord, I do before the
23adjournment if that is convenient.
24     "But other reports unfortunately have the ring
25of authenticity. Most of these SS officers, the gangsters
26that carried out the mass shootings were I think acting

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