Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I continue?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I have done precisely that.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     On my website.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but what about your books?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not writing books about the Holocaust, Mr Rampton,
 9I am writing books about Adolf Hitler. The book is already
101,000 pages long. If I was to start going into that
11detail then I would be sternly reprimanded by the editors
12saying, Mr Irving, when I wrote the Hermann Goring
13biography, the American publishers came to me and said
14Mr Irving will you please cut out 2,000 lines from the
15printed text. This happens. We do not have a problem
16that our books are too short, we have the problem that our
17books are too long.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Mr Irving --
19 A. [Mr Irving]     But the entire document is on the Internet and I am the
20one who placed it there.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- Mr Irving, you have made reference to this Bruns
22testimony in your published books?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     As I said in my opening speech, again and again, it is the
24most harrowing account and element of the Holocaust.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But without ever mentioning either of these verbal
26exchanges in their entirety?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely right.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Because this is descending into a level of textual
 4analysis which would bore the pant off an audience, which
 5would be totally out of place in a book about Adolf Hitler
 6for which I am perfectly prepared to discuss here in court
 7if you attach importance to you, but you do not want me to
 8discuss it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not trying to prove a case about Adolf Hitler one way
10or the other?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     But you will not allow me to discuss it here.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course I allow you discuss it here.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     You stopped me.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I interested in why it makes no appearance --
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I have reasons for discounting it.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Discounting bits of it I suppose would be
17more accurate.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I am discounting the bit about being shown the Fuhrer's
19order, or being shown orders implicating Hitler.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Why do you discount it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Ah, at last. Because other evidence shows that Hitler had
22not issued the order; firstly I said that nowhere in all
23the documentation of all the world's archives has any such
24order turned up.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That not evidence, that is an absence of evidence?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It is evidence in a very powerful sense.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a negative piece of evidence?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I hate to remind you of the basic principle of English law
 3that a man is innocent until proven guilty; am I right?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Hitler is not on trial, alas.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Is Hitler somehow excluded from this general rule of fair
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a slightly --
 8 THE WITNESS:     Mr Rampton talks about absence of evidence not
 9counting, all the world's archive are effectively now open
10to us, there has not come forward any collateral evidence
11and as for a 22 year-old SS man's word being believed when
12he has the power of life and death over thousands of Jews
13who have just been ordered shot, this SS man obviously has
14more front than Selfridges, he is going around saying,
15yes, we have orders, I have orders, do not come critising
16me, that is what is going on here. That is the way I read
17that and that is the way any responsible historian should
18read it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on. You accept a lot what is in
21 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I do indeed.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But you do not accept that particular --
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Certainly not to the degree --
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     As it was reflecting the reality?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     -- that one general's recollection of what a 22 year old
26SS man told him in Riga should be taken discounting the

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 1negative evidence as Mr Rampton calls it of all the
 2world's archives.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am not going to take you up on that;
 4you can argue with my experts about that if you like.
 5I am interested in the way you write your books. Both in
 6the Nuremberg book, and we will not need to look at them,
 7because we are looking for a black hole, both in the
 8Nuremberg book and in the Goebbels book you mention,
 9either in the text or in a footnote, or both, the Bruns,
10call it what you like?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I consider my duty to draw everyone's attention to
12this report.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But nowhere in either of those books do you mention either
14of these exchanges that Bruns reported he had with
16 A. [Mr Irving]     You are repeating yourself, I will repeat the answer.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You repeat your answer, yes, please.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I did not.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you did not. You actually have done this with the
20Altemeyer passages; may I show you? Can you find, please,
21file D3(i), I think it is tab 27 that I want. I will tell
22you where to look in a moment, Mr Irving, I just want to
23remind you and his Lordship of what Bruns actually said on
24Altemeyer's return with an order from Berlin after the
25shootings had been reported. "Here is an order, just
26issued, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from

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 1taking place in the future." That is your translation of
 2the German.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is one that I agree with.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is from my introduction?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but then it goes on, does the sentence reported by
 7General Bruns: "They are to be carried out more
 8discreetly." That is the full text of General Bruns'
 9words as a report of what he was told by Altemeyer. Will
10you please look at page 415 of the document which is at
11tab 27 which is a written introduction by you in the
12Journal of Historical Review, to your new edition of
13"Hitler's War". At the end of that article there are
14some footnotes on page 415.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why are we looking at it there as opposed to
16in the copy?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I am wondering.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Copy of which book?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have the whole of "Hitler's War".
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is not in the book.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you said it was.
22 MR RAMPTON:     No.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought this was the introduction to the
241991 edition.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I do not think it is. It is an edition
26I have not got, that is why. That is why we have it

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