Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 204

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    Quite a lot of the ordinary army, I am not talking about
 1the SS, who are not army at all, really, were anti-Nazi?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this the evidence that you are leading, I am not
 3familiar with any statistical basis for that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am suggesting you could give me the answer "yes"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not seen any documentary evidence of that. I do
 6not think GALLUP Polls are conducted among the Wehrmacht
 7soldiers who still support Adolf. I always want to see
 8this kind of evidence and if I can just -- if I can just
 9add here we have got very high quality evidence of the
10morale and opinions of the Germans. We have the SD
11stinnungsberichge, which were the morale reports where
12Gestapo agents would hang around in bars listening to what
13people said. We have sacks and sacks of captured mail,
14captured by the Allies when a troop ship were caught or
15when positions were overrun. We know exactly what these
16people were writing. So we are very well informed about
17what was going on. I have never seen any kind of
18statistical analysis.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If this is not an interrogation, which it plainly is not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And if General Bruns does not know that he is being
22recorded, and if it be the case that he simply is chatting
23to his fellow prisoners in German, which he is, am
24I right?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     While you just read that, may I just add a further point,
26we are dealing here with a 22 year old young man called

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 1Altemeyer who has been put in SS uniform.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, Mr Irving, there are times when you may make
 3speeches and times when you must answer my questions, this
 4is one of them; you said yesterday, no, I think this is on
 5Day One?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I will come back to what I was about to say when you have
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "This document has, in my submission, considerable
 9evidentiary values... it is not self-serving, the General
10is not testifying in his own interest, he is merely
11talking, probably in a muffled whisper to fellow prisoners
12at a British interrogation centre and he has no idea that
13in another room British experts are listening to and
14recording every word. We also have the original German
15text of this document. I might add my, Lord ... "
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That, I think, was Mr Irving's speech.
17 MR RAMPTON:     That is Mr Irving's speech. That is on page 46 --
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I make it easy for you, Mr Rampton, and say I accept
19Altemeyer did say those words.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- right.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Or as best as Bruns recalls them.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The whole of Bruns' account in this regard has the ring of
23truth then?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is likely also then, is it, one cannot be certain,
26one was not there.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It is very likely that the SS officer concerned used those
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is likely also he used the words at the end of this
 4extract on the bottom of page 24 of your opening: "Here
 5is an order, just issued, prohibiting mass shootings on
 6that scale from taking place in future" --
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Have we now left that previous passage, if so --
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- I am coming back to it, but I want to try and be
 9consistent, if you are saying that we can believe that
10Altemeyer used the words in the first passage, can we also
11believe that Altemeyer said this: "Here is an order, just
12used, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from taking
13place in future"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     -- that I believe.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "They are to be carried out more discreetly."
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That I attach less credibility to.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the kind of throw away line that soldiers would use,
19particularly in captivity, adding a gag, looking for a bit
20of a snigger from someone, saying not to be done on a mass
21shooting, of course, has to be done a bit more
22discreetly. If I can draw a comparison, you very rightly
23read out a passage of a speech I made in Calgary where
24I protested that I had been called a mild fascist by the
25newspapers and I said I do not like that word "mild" it is
26a throw away line, you are looking for a laugh.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not --
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You then attach great weight to the fact Mr Irving
 3obviously accepts he is fascist, which is untrue. But
 4these things happen in conversation, Mr Rampton. It calls
 5for judgment and integrity before you use any particular
 6part of a sentence.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- no, you misjudge me, Mr Irving, you should re-read what
 8I actually said and you will find what you just said is a
 9misrecollection. However, that matters not in the
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I now go back to the previous part you are relying on
12in that, where he says "here are the Fuhrer's orders" and
13he showed it to me.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did not say that. He said "whereupon --" this is
15important, Mr Irving, you must be accurate, this is an
16important distinction: "Whereupon he showed me his
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Bruns speaking, not Bruns quoting
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Altemeyer says, well, they are to be shot in accordance
21with the Fuhrer's orders, Bruns said: Fuhrer's orders?
22Yes, says Altemeyer, whereupon he showed me his orders.
23 MR RAMPTON:     His orders?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That does not mean the Fuhrer's orders, that means
26Altemeyer's orders?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I am grateful to you for drawing that to my attention. If
 2you wish to infer from that that he showed to Bruns orders
 3from Hitler, or orders quoting orders from Hitler, because
 4he later on talks about the Fuhrer's orders, can I now
 5comment on that?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not going to comment on a suggestion I have not --
 7I am not going to invite you to comment on a suggestion
 8I have not made.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     May I nevertheless comment?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, you may not. If his Lordship permits it,
11why, yes. My question is a completely different one; my
12question is this, it is credible that Altemeyer said what
13he is here reported as having said?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is also credible, is it not, that he showed Bruns a
16written order saying that these people were to be shot?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good, thank you very much. Put those two things together,
19and there is evidence here which needs to be taken into
20account; do you agree?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Discounted or taken into account, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Take into account, brought to the attention of the public
23or the historians so that they can make up their own minds
24whether or not this is evidence of a Fuhrer order for
25these shootings?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right .

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