Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     By the time the second edition appears, it is true that
 2five years earlier I had known that a word had been
 3wrongly read. If you know -- when one publishes
 4successive editions of the book, if one is in the
 5fortunate position that I am, you are in the position that
 6you can, if you have the chance, constantly upgrade and
 7update and polish and refine. The latest edition that we
 8put out, before it goes to the printers, I have had it on
 9the Internet for the last six weeks, and I have invited
10people around the world to spot errors precisely like
11that, and I have increased the reward to a present $8 per
12error. I have had to shell out 2 or $3,000 already. I am
13not in the least bit ashamed because one wants to turn out
14a work that is as perfect and as error free as possible;
15but even so, errors go in. There is a very famous case
16where a man did exactly the same and he offered a very
17large reward if anybody could spot a typographical error
18in a book that he had produced, and it turned out that the
19very title on the title page had been -- can I point out,
20Mr Rampton, another very serious error?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am listening; it is just that I have to get ready for my
22next question. Do continue, yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I will continue rambling on. There is a very serious
24error in the book "Hitler's War" which is before you, the
251991 edition, and this is that my name does not appear on
26it. That you would consider is a most serious error that

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 1an author can face, that his name does not appear on his
 2own book.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It depends, rather, on one's point of view, Mr Irving,
 4I would have said. Mr Irving, can we turn please to --
 5what is that? That seems to have your name on it but maybe
 6this is the wrong edition.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Not on the jacket, but actually in the book, Mr Rampton,
 8you will not find it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not, I confess, looked, nor do I think I ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I mean, I confess that I am the author for the purposes of
11this action.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nor do I think that I will spend the court's time doing it
13now. Thank you very much. Mr Irving, I want to return to
14General Bruns. How do you pronounce it, in fact?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Bruns, B-R-U-N-S.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With no umlaut though?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No umlaut.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If that is the right word. Do you have your two-page
19English translation?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I know it virtually off by heart.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would rather you had it.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in my opening statement. I have it, yes, I have the
23opening statement version.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe I should use that. It will make it easier for
25everybody. I have the TRO version.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It is on page 22. You say that Bruns' account has

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 1verisimilitude?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Account of what he said he saw?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I marked that because later on under oath in the witness
 5box in Nuremberg he said he had not been there, I find
 6that hard to believe.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree with you, I think it has verisimilitude for what
 8it matters. It is an horrendous account of an
 9unpleasant -- more than an unpleasant event in human
10history. That is not what I am interested in. Given that
11it has verisimilitude, if you look in the middle of page
1222, one of the things that Bruns was overheard saying to
13whoever he was speaking to was this, middle of the
14page: "I told that fellow Altemeyer?" In fact, Altemeyer,
15whose name I shall always remember and who will be added
16to the list of war criminals, listen to me they [that is
17Jews] represent valuable manpower. Altemeyer: Do you call
18Jews valuable human beings, sir? I [that is Bruns said]
19Listen to me properly, I said valuable manpower, I did not
20mention their value as human beings. He said [Altemeyer
21said] Well, they are to be shot in accordance with
22the Fuhrer's orders! I said: Fuhrer's orders? He said,
23yes, whereupon he showed me his orders."
24Now that has never appeared in any of your
25books, has it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Too true, yes, absolutely right.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I discounted it.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I am familiar with other sources where people
 5claim to be acting on Hitler's orders because it was the
 6ready answer to shut anybody up if somebody came and
 7complained then the senior officer or the other officer
 8would say: "Do not start criticising me, this is the
 9Fuhrer's orders", and I discounted the subsequent sentence
10about "then he showed it to me" for exactly the same
11reason that I discounted the statement at Nuremberg that
12Eichmann claimed that the -- rather Wisliceny claimed that
13Eichmann had showed him the orders. There are no orders.
14They have not been found. We have now been in the
15archives, in and out of the archives of the world for the
16last 50 years, since the end of World War II, 55 years and
17no primary or secondary or tertiary evidence of the
18existence of these orders has been found as regards the
19war years.
20     I concede that in interrogations and in War
21Crimes Trials and elsewhere everyone else is happy to talk
22about Fuhrer's orders but the fact remains had there been
23any such order or any such document, and you are tapping
24this one, this is what I will put in the category of
25"interrogations", had there been any such order, it would
26have surfaced by now.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You put this in the category of
 2"interrogations", did you say?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is at the end of war, my Lord, he is in the enemy
 4hands.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He is being surreptitiously...
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that, my Lord, but it is in a grey area. He
 7is in the enemy's power and custody and I draw attention
 8to the line a bit earlier up where he says: "His name
 9I shall always also remember and who will be added to the
10list of war criminals". That is a gentle hint to me that
11perhaps he is not entirely unaware that somebody may be
12listening.
13 MR RAMPTON:     What do you know --
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You must appreciate that, my Lord.
15 MR RAMPTON:     What do you know General Bruns?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     -- what do I know of him?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you know of him, yes.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Only what I know from this document and from the writings
19of Gerald Fleming. I suppose we would describe him now as
20been an anti-Nazi by the time the war ended, but then a
21lot of people were anti-Nazi by the time the war ended.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- what if they happened to be an anti-Nazi all along,
23there were such people in German during the 1940s, were
24there not.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Undoubtedly, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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