Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Trunsport"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I will explain why it does not.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, no, please.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It might be thought to an English person -- just bear with
 6me, answer my person -- it might be thought to look like a
 7"u", might it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord, do you have the facsimile in front of you?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am following.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Now could you turn to page 14, please?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     14, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In fact, that thing that looks like a "u" to an English
13person in "transport" is an "a", is it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at the word which you say you mistranscribed as
16"Juden" which is three lines up from the bottom of the
17right-hand column ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- on page 14.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have it.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is plainly "haben"; it is the same thing, it is an "a",
22is it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what we call Monday morning quarter back ring. It
24is somebody who knows what the answer is. If I had given
25this page to you, say, six months ago, Mr Rampton, and
26said, "Would you mind reading that word?"

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would not have had a clue. I cannot read hardly any of
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That was the position I was in 34 years ago when I looked
 4at this.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? But you have never gone back to it?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I must have gone back to it in the 1970s because I retyped
 7it on my transcript.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The third letter, you think that is a "d" or you thought
 9it was a "d"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the word "Juden" which I would ask you to
11look at variously, for example ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will look at it on page 12, if you want?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. About eight lines from the bottom. In the third
14line of that entry you have "Judentransport", admittedly,
15it is a bit ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is obscured?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     --- obscured by the word above it.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     But you can already begin to see that there are distinct
20similarities in the outline.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am afraid I cannot accept that. Anyway, the point is
22this, is it not ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, you hasten on, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- you say, you tell us, that you read that word, that
25entry as reading: "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS Juden zu

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and I can produce my contemporary index card on which
 2I made that transcription which shows at that time as
 3"Juden zu bleiben".
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Turn, please, to page 13 of this bundle and there you have
 5it correctly?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I have corrected it, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You tell us to look at the word "haben". One can see if
 8one looks that the letters are squashed?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been typed in subsequently with tippex, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, or whatever was existing then because you say that
11was retyped on a typewriter which you threw away more than
1215 years ago?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, between 10 and 15 years ago -- an old IBM typewriter
14I had.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but before 1991?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now can you take "Hitler's War 1991", please?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask you this, Mr Irving? You are
19fluent in German. If you are trying to write that
20somebody has to stay somewhere, whether it is Jews or
21whoever, you would not say "haben zu bleiben", would you?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     They have to stay, "haben zu bleiben" would be the German.
23Just the same as in English, has to stay, has to remain.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is that right?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But, on the other hand, the line "Juden zu bleiben"
26would be also grammatically correct.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is abbreviation, but if you are using a verb at all,
 2you would say "haben" would be appropriate?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and you could equally well say the word above it
 4which is "Verwaltungsfuhrer" was a line by itself and a
 5topic by itself which is what I assumed it was in the
 6original transcript.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Can you turn now to Hitler's War on page 427, 1991
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have it in front of me, but if you would just
10read out the passage.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     D1(v). I do not have to read very much. My Lord, page
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
14 MR RAMPTON:     At the end of the last complete paragraph on page
15427 -- is that 1991 you have there?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     You will not believe this, but I am only person who does
17not have a copy of that book. People visit my house and
18they think, "Well, that is nice". It has gone!
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1991, volume 2, it is D1(v).
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I would be quite ready to concede what you are about to
21say. We do not really need to go into this.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I probably ought to know what you are about
23to concede.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I do not think we should communicate by
25telepathy, Mr Irving!
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, we have read the first part of this earlier this
 2morning about "Hitler being obliged to telephone from
 3Hitler's bunker to Heydrich the explicit order that these
 4Jews were 'not to be liquidated'". Then you go on after
 5the semi-colon ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell me what page you are on?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, 427. I beg your pardon.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "... and the next day Himmler telephoned SS Oswohl Pohl,
10overall chief of the concentration camp system, with the
11order 'Jews are to stay where they are'." When that was
12published, you knew it was wrong, did you not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Published what.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When that was published, you knew it was wrong?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     When it was published, yes. You must appreciate this text
18you are looking at here was set by the Americans, by the
19American publisher, A1 Books Limited, in probably 1985 or
201986. They published it round about that time, and two or
21three years later, round about 1990, we approached the
22English publishers and had this American edition
23photographed and what is called offset, and reprinted in
24our own edition which Mr Bateman is holding there, what
25you call the 1991 edition.
26So there is very little connection between the

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