Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 204

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    The handwriting on these pages is not only Himmler, it is
 1also his Adjutant who still alive in Munich.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Never mind. Let us be precise then and put impersonally,
 3with the spidery handwriting, Gothic handwriting on these
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     On these pages, I will have a shot at it, Mr Rampton.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I just wonder how used you are to looking at it.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Not recently, but over the last few nights I have had to
 8strain my eyes once again, thanks to your imputations.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When did you first see these pages which, apparently, you
10did not see the whole of the page for 30th November 1941
11until 17th May 1998, is that right?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     He maintained three separate continuous records. He kept
13the pocket diary. Those pocket diaries are scattered
14around the world. Some are in Israel now, some are in
15Russia. I found two in the United States and gave them to
16the German government.
17     He also maintained a telephone log which was a
18sheet of paper on his disk, like the ones in front of us,
19on which he would write down on one side the name of the
20person he was talking to and on other side what they were
21talking about. Either he or his adjutant would also keep
22a daily agenda of whom he was to see and when and what
23they would talk about or what they had talked about.
24     The fourth series of documents by Himmler you
25will also run into is when he went to see Hitler, he would
26write down on a sheet of paper his discussion points.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are coming to one of those later on today, Mr Irving.
 2Can you turn to page 12?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I should also explain that these are on microfilm
 4originally in the United States which is the way I used
 5them and accessed them originally in the 1970s.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wan to be clear what it was you had seen when you wrote
 7your books. Can you turn to page 12 in your little
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Right. This is the telephone conversations of November
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Bear with me, if you do not mind, just allow me to ask
12some questions. What is this a page a copy of? Page 12?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I just stated that he would have on his desk a sheet of
14paper on which he would either type or insert in
15handwriting the words "telephon gesprach" which is
16T-E-L-E-P-H-O-N G-E-S-P-R-A-C-H.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that is his what we can ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     This is his telephone log.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What we could perhaps imprecisely call his telephone log?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you turn over then to ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I was the first person to find and make use of these.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is as may be.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is important.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On page 14?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 14, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I ask the same question: is that the same document? It
 2looks different.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It looks different because that is a photocopy from my
 4blue volume of these which is on the desk at the other end
 5of your bench.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Whereas the page previously, when I used it as a facsimile
 8in my book "Hitler's War", I had it rephotographed by the
 9German Government from the original in their archives as a
10photograph rather than as a photocopy.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, looking at page 14, somebody has typed "telephon
12gesprach Reichsfuhrer SS" from 1st December 1941?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who typed that?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That was typed by his adjutant. A blank sheet of paper
16would be typed for him and laid before him with that
17heading already prepared.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But the other one, the earlier one, has not got that?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     He did not have it, no. That is taken straight off the
20microfilm. I can show that to you on the bound volume.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that. Let us understand it. The second one is
22the thing that he probably keeps in his office?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. He would sometimes use a presheet --
24pretyped sheet that his adjutant had typed and sometimes
25he would just a take a blank sheet of paper if he was in a
26hurry and write the headings himself.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which may be something of the character of the first one.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct. They are all in the same file, those
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What I want to know is what you had when you wrote your
 5books. Was it this these two sheets of paper?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I had those two sheets.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not have the fuller version which we can now
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not a question of the fuller version. The other
10page that you are referring to was not his telephone log,
11but his daily agenda, his appointment book, which is in
12Moscow and which only became available in 1998.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We really would get on quicker if you would let me finish
14the question. I said the fuller version which we can now
15compose from different sources. As the editors of the
16Witte book have done, they have used a number of different
17sources to make a diary for the day.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, they have. They have constructed an artificial
19diary, yes, a calendar.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly, but in the days when you were writing your books,
21the books which we are talking about, this is all you had,
22was it?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The Witte book, which is the one to the left of your
24box ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is new, that one?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It costs about £70 -- not as much as law books, of

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 1course, but still quite expensive.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not buy it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It was only published last year. I only obtained it about
 4four months ago.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, now this is not in any sense a trick or an
 6examination question or anything. Can you look at page
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the last entry which I think is probably quarter past
106 -- it might be anyway, might it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     The last line or the last entry?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, the last entry.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     6.15.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It looks like it, does it not? Then across the line?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "SS Gruppenfuhrer ... Berlin".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the first word of the entry in the right-hand
18 A. [Mr Irving]     "Transport Nachersatz".
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the "a" of transport which I ask you to look at.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is the real problem.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is not.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is because the "a" looks exactly like the "e" in Gothic
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. In fact, you might think to an English eye it
25looks like a "u"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No.

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