Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 204
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1 MR IRVING: I was going to ask, my Lord, I might, having given
2the Defendants time to consider it, if I might address the
3court briefly on the matter after the lunch adjournment?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you would like to do that, that is fine.
6 MR RAMPTON: I have no comment until I have seen it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose you will, even when you
9 MR RAMPTON: I see. My Lord, the only thing I would mention
10about the transcript, I do not know what the cure is. Is
11that, normally speaking, of course, one can deduce what it
12was, but here and there -- this is not a criticism of the
13transcriber, far from it -- one sees in square brackets
14the word "German" which represents something that has been
15said in German. That is going to repeat itself
16indefinitely in that case. I do not know what cure is.
17Whether the word should be spelt out each time. It is a
18terribly laborious way of dealing it, or whether we supply
19at some stage when it is important a list of what we
20suppose was the word used. As I say, most of the time one
21can deduce it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it actually going to be all that much of a
23burden to spell it out or, at any rate, spell out the key
24words in the document? I am thinking yesterday
25"liquidierung". One can spell that out.
26 MR RAMPTON: There is going to be more of that today.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow.
2 MR RAMPTON: Perhaps spell it out?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to think so. I think that is
4the best way. It is going to slow things down. Would you
5prefer it, both of you?
6 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is going to slow things down, but it needs
8to be done that way. So, Mr Irving, would you like to
9take me through the...
10 MR IRVING: Page 1, my Lord, this is a letter -- the sole
11purpose of this letter is that it indicates the date when
12I really made use of the Himmler telephone notes, being
131974; some 25 years ago, 26 years ago.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you this? You there
15transcribe judentransport, J-U-D-E-N-T-R-A-N-S-P-O-R-T, in
16the singular, and that is in 1974.
17 MR IRVING: We have check the original in the German. You are
18absolutely right, my Lord. You are absolutely right.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
20 MR IRVING: In a very vague, and, of course, I am still
21considering myself to be under oath as I make these
22remarks, in a very vague way my recollection is that time
23I regarded the word "transport" as not just meaning like a
24transport train or one consignment, or a transport ship in
25the way that you would talk about a convoy of 26
26transports but also in the sense that transportation.
1I consider that the words judenstransport meant
2"transportation of Jews".
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I note that you make that point.
4 MR IRVING: This is an alternative inference but now I am quite
5happy to accept that this particular discussion from
6external evidence only referred to one particular
7transport of Jews, and I am indebted to your Lordship for
8having reminded, or took me back into the mind set of 26
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR IRVING: As you know, my presumption is, I will just read
12the middle paragraph that Hitler had become an active
13knowledge bearer or accomplice in the destruction of the
14Jews only in 1943. This is of course a translation of the
15following page, my Lord. From the attached page, which is
16a facsimile, which we will see in a minute, it is evident
17that Himmler, arriving at midday on November 30th, 1941,
18in the Wolf's Lair, which I explain was Hitler's
19headquarters in East Prussia, after a brief conversation
20with Hitler immediately had to telephone Heydrich in
21Prague, and then comes the phrase, "judentransportest aust
22Berlin keine liquidierung", which I believe the shorthand
23writer already had from us.
24 If you take this in conjunction with various
25other entries, e.g. that of 17th November 1941, in which
26Heydrich informs the Reich Fuhrer, that is Himmler, on
1conditions in the general Uberman, Poland.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is SS Reich Fuhrer.
3 MR IRVING: Well, Reich Fuhrer SS would be the full title.
4There was only one Reich Fuhrer in German -- conditions in
5the general government Poland-geting rid of the Jews,
6Beseitigung, this can only indicate that Himmler has been
7rapped across the knuckles by Hitler. This conversation
8note has until now evidently slipped through the fingers
9of the historical research community, as you might call
11 Then the other two lines at the bottom are not
12without interest in the chain of documents I refer to, my
13Lord. Himmler had to issue a similar "holt" order in
14April 1942 on account of the liquidation of the gypsies,
15again after a brief visit to Hitler. "I thought this
16might be of interest to you." You will see that document
17too, my Lord, in this bundle. Because it is false to try
18and draw inferences from one document without looking at
19other documents in the series. I appreciate in court it
20is difficult to do this.
21 My Lord, the next document I am going to draw
22your Lordship's attention to is 03 at the foot of the
23page. This is another document that was in discovery.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have read that. That is you asking
25Professor Hinsley whether he has any more information.
26 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, except that at that time it does
1indicate at that time he did not have the German
3 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, Mr Irving. I beg your pardon. May
4I intervene to ask your Lordship to insert it in that
5bundle? It comes from Mr Irving's discovery. There is no
6mystery about it. Professor Hinsley's reply.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not there.
8 MR RAMPTON: Yes, we have it now.
9 MR IRVING: I could not find it last night, my Lord. In is
10Professor Hinsley indicates that he has obviously not yet
11seen himself the German originals of the British
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14 MR IRVING: It is quite interesting.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The postscript is perhaps of some
17 MR IRVING: It is interesting the British Official Historian
18and British Secret Service had either not been allowed to
19see or had not found in general chaos the documentation,
20these are the originals, which are now in the Public
21Record Office. But the German originals are very, very
22informative in their scope, breadth and depth.
23 That, my Lord, is 04. This is the first of the
24notes of the telephone conversations from Himmler's
25telephone log to the Chief of the SS, and the one on which
26I rely is the one timed 12.15. It is the fourth
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