Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 204

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    -- we are coming to your use, I add, your use of the Bruns
 1look at these two messages, these two intercepts. There
 2is no evidence in that of any intervention or
 3participation by Hitler, is there?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     -- no.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is all between Himmler and Jeckeln?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the log for the 1st December 1941, I have
 8given you the composite version, having lost --
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Composite version, yes. This is a composite because it is
10made up from three or four different sources by the
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- by "composite" I meant composed from different pages in
13the book.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, December 1st.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     December 1st. We see when he is making a telephone call
16he puts "T" is that the editors or is that Himmler?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the editors who put that.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the editors. At quarter past one on the 1st there
19is an entry, it must be a telephone call because Heydrich
20is in Prag?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in my bundle two.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The German for Prague is P-R-A-G I take it; is that right?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At quarter past 1 he rings SS Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich
25in Prag?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     If I may interrupt, we do not know he rang Heydrich, all

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 1we can say is there was a conversation.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Heydrich might have rung him, of course?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first word is scribedamen; is that secretaries?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They have a talk about secretaries, it seems, then they
 7talk about the executions in Riga?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is there any inconsistency in that entry and the
10suggestion that what they actually talked about was the
11fact that Jeckeln had not followed the guidelines because
12he was doing it too publicly?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is perfectly consistent. I might add this is the
14document 24 in -- I am sorry, document No. 14 in my
15bundle, the original.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You see there is no evidence in that that that phone
17call to Heydrich, or from Heydrich, is in any way involved
18or prompted by Hitler, is there?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No, none at all, but you are setting a trap for yourself
20I am afraid.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Because if I may refer back to the second of the messages,
23page 17 in my bundle, one in which Himmler contacts
24Jeckeln on December 1st and reads the riot act to him.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we looked at that.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It says: "The Jews being outplaced to the Ostland are to

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 1be dealt with only in accordance with the guidelines laid
 2down by myself and/or by the Reichssicherheitshauptamt on
 3my orders." No mention of Hitler here.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     So this is vitally important to me. I rely on that to
 6prove that Hitler was not involved in this order. The
 7ordering procedure was not Hitler's. The guidelines were
 8not Hitler's.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, one would not expect, given the way in which
10Hitler's so-called orders and, they are very rarely
11orders, they are more often just an airy speech at some
12dinner table, the words "Hitler's orders" in quotes, were,
13as it were, dispersed down the hierarchical column of the
14Nazis, you would not expect Hitler to issue precise
15guidelines about how the Jews were to be treated on
16arrival or how they were to be killed, would you?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This is your, evidence you are leading or a question?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am putting it to you that that is right, is it not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I rely only on my interpretation of this document that
20Himmler in a secret message says, they are my order and my
21guidelines and you have contravened them. When the
22temptation would surely have been to say you have
23contravened the Fuhrer's orders and the Fuhrer's
24guidelines, which is a very strong point I would make
25because this is the centre point of my own contention.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not think that in light of Bruns's evidence the

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 1guidelines were whatever you do you must make sure it does
 2not come to public attention because public opinion in
 3Germany will not stand for it if it does, and that that is
 4precisely what was discussed between Himmler and the
 5journalist on the train or wherever it was on the 30th
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that public opinion in Germany would have stood
 8from it from what I know of the Germans -- most Germans
 9would not have batted a eyelash at the knowledge that
10these mass killings of the Jews were going on.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, they were German Jews, I think you
12agreed earlier on?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     German Jews.
14 MR RAMPTON:     They were Berlin Jews.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, there was certainly nothing that would have caused
16the Germans problems on the scale that the euthanasia
17killings were causing in public morale problems. Maybe my
18interpretation of the morale in Germany is wrong, you will
19lead evidence later on to contradict me.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think that probably is right.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure I follow the logic of that, the
22euthanasia programme did cause unrest to use a neutral
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It caused so much unrest, my Lord, that Hitler had to
25intervene and stop it.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would not the shooting of large numbers of, to put it

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 1bluntly, healthy Jews, have caused even more unrest, or at
 2any rate as much unrest?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     They are very -- they are parallel programmes and in very
 4many senses. A lot of the killing operations were
 5conducted by the same organizations and the same experts,
 6but the campaign of Dr Goebbels against the Jews,
 7propaganda campaign had, been conducted with very much
 8more vehemence and personal commitment by Dr Goebbels and
 9it had converted a large element of the German, population
10in my opinion, to anti-Semitism of a vicious and poisonous
11degree. Whereas his attempt to achieve the same results
12against the crippled and disabled had been limited just to
13one or two films and articles. There a film called "Ich
14Klagean", which was a film about the -- it was a film in
15which the mentally disabled and crippled were portrayed in
16a repulsive manner so the public would accustom themselves
17to idea of putting them out of the way, and this kind of
18propaganda totally failed with the German public. The
19doctors went along with it but the general public when
20they found out about it resisted very strongly euthanasia
21killings. Whereas the Jews were considered to be,
22I think, in Germany fair game as a result largely of
23Dr Goebbels' propaganda.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How good is your facility with Heinrich Himmler's spidery
25Gothic handwriting?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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