Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have gone through the little bundle this morning
 2in some detail, I am glad I did.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You show me the decode, I suppose mean the one on page 17?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     December 1st.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, you are moving to a slightly
 6different topic, may I ask one more question?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is back to your website, looking at it
 9now, forget what you have written in the past, but looking
10at it now, it is obvious that there was some sort of
11discussion or meeting between Himmler and the journalists;
12is that not right?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I regard this meeting between Himmler and the
14journalist as being a matter of very low priority, I just
15put it in purely because it shows what he was doing that
16morning. It never occurred to me that Gunther d'Alquen
17who is in fact still alive, I believe -- no, he died three
18or four months ago in fact, that he would brought to
19Himmler any kind of serious information about was going
20on. I have never heard that implied or inferred.
21D'Alquen has been questioned on very many occasions, both
22by the courts and by journalists, and I am sure that that
23kind of information would have come into my possession, if
24it had had I would have immediately used it.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The entry does suggest that this journalist did have some
26news to give to Himmler, does it not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall go straight home and change the wording of the
 2entry, my Lord, because was that not what I intended as
 3the author of this passage.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What is Reisebericht?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a travel report. He has been travelling around,
 6presumably on the Eastern Front and he comes back to
 7Himmler. He reports back to Himmler, tells him what he
 8has seen, when he visited the SS police divisions and
 9whatever --
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     How would you translate Totenkopfdivision?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     -- Death's Head Division, which is a division on the
12Eastern Front which was not connected, as I understand it,
13with the killing operations, it was actually operating on
14the Eastern Front. I am prepared to be corrected on this
15but I believe that the Death's Head Division was one of
16the elite SS divisions which was fighting on the Eastern
17Front at Moscow at this time of course in severe
18difficulties.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, thank you very much. I am sorry, Mr Rampton.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is of no matter, my Lord.
21 THE WITNESS:     I would be very willing to write material in
22between the lines here if I thought it assisted the
23evidence that on this particular case, on the balance of
24probabilities beyond putting the name in, that is all one
25can safely do. But your Lordship will notice that I do
26not hesitate to publicise information which is possibly

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 1hostile to my own interests.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     The original of I imagine the two documents that
 4you are talking about when you are talking about the -- is
 5on page 20 of your little bundle; do you have the little
 6bundle there?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Items 24 and 25; is that right?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     24 and?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     25, items 24 and 25 on page 20?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this April 20th, you are talking about?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am sorry, this is the summons to Jeckeln?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you give me the page number.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 20.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Items 24 and 25.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I see, this is actual the intercepts.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we go back to page 17 for the English.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is quite clear, is it not, I mean I agree with you,
21that Himmler was very cross with Jeckeln for what had
22happened?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     For overstepping the guidelines.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure. We do not know what guidelines are you tell us?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know what the guidelines are, no.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is common ground for once between you and me and the

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 1people who inform me, teach me, educate me, that following
 2that incident because no doubt the meeting took place
 3between Himmler and Jeckeln on 4th December 1941, yes?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Probably following receipt of the telegram or whatever it
 6was on the 1st December.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, may I remind you of the very lengthy Bruns
 8Report I read out.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am coming to that.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I answer.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Certainly remind me of that if you wish, yes.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In which there is talk in the Bruns Report of Bruns
13saying we sent an urgent message to Hitler's Headquarters,
14how could we do it, then the word comes back to the Riga
15front to the young SS man, he said, we received orders,
16this kind of thing has to stop. This is the kind of
17extraneous information one takes on board when one draws
18inferences from documents.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I think sometimes you set traps for yourself.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I try not to.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Actually what Bruns said was mass shootings on this scale
22have got to stop, this has to be done more discreetly?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is quite different?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what the local SS officers said to him.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is quite different, is it not, it is not the same thing

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 1at all?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     They wanted to carry on, yes, they wanted to carry.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, Bruns's report of the order through the mouth of
 4Altemeyer was that the order which had come from Berlin
 5was that mass shootings of this kind on the scale have to
 6stop, that has to be done more discreetly?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     This is Bruns' version four years later of what the 22
 8year old SS officer who wanted to carry on killing Jews
 9told him. He said, we have gone been told by East Prussia
10we have to stop, however, the way he phrased it was, they
11have to stop on this scale and we are going to carry on
12doing it in a more discreet way because that is what they
13wanted to do. But of course they did not, they did not
14carry on, they stopped, as that footnote shows.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will come to it in a moment. They did stop for a
16time. They stopped doing what Himmler did not like that
17Jeckeln had done which was mass, if you like, semi public
18shootings of people as they go off the trains?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The footnote which I printed at the end of bundle says
20"the killing of German Jews stopped for several months
21after this exchange".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is common ground between you and me, the killing
23of German Jews by this method. Maybe it stopped --
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you are putting words in which do not exist --
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- we are coming to your use, I add, your use of the Bruns
26evidence in a moment, but before we do that, I want you to

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