Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 204

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    I think it is right, but if you want to be
 1referred to it then no doubt you should be.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     A summary?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I hate to agree with vulgarised versions of what I
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us have a look and see what you did say.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, one could start at line 20 on page 285
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     285?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     285, line 20, I am trying not to take too much of it.
10I suppose it really begins at line five on page 285, but
11I hope I summarized it fairly?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you did, but I will certainly stand by what
13I stated on those two pages.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Look at line 286, line 3 and onwards.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, please.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the question, of course, and not the answer.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but there is an answer after the
19 MR RAMPTON:     At line nine there is an answer.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My summary was a fair one. There is no evidence beyond
22the fact that Himmler was at the bunker that day and had
23lunch with Hitler an hour later, is there?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Evidence for what?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For an order from Hitler that Jews -- that the train load
26of Jews, let us stick with that for the moment?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This is --
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Should be not liquidated?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I do not mean this offensively, but this is the common
 4sense interpretation of the evidence lying before us,
 5rather the perverse interpretation. We will always has
 6versions or two interpretations, one is the obvious one,
 7which is -- and the other is the perverse one. The
 8obvious one is if Himmler goes to Hitler's headquarters
 9and is handed a phone at some time on his way out and he
10then has to make phone call to Heydrich saying, "stop
11killing the Berlin Jews", then there is some close
12connection between that and the fact he has seen Hitler
13that day.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a possible interpretation, we in this court, and
15I do not know about the court of history, we in this court
16when we say "evidence" we mean "evidence" not "inference".
17 A. [Mr Irving]     The issues that are being pleaded are mistranslation, or
18distortion, deliberately mistranslation, distortion,
19manipulation and I do not think that the particular avenue
20we are going down leads in the --
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will put it bluntly to you and then I will leave it, you
22can deny it, because you will deny it, I am sure; (a) you
23deliberately mistranslated it, you inflated from one train
24load into Jews generally, that is number one; and (b) you
25inserted an order from Hitler for which there was no

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I will take those two allegations seriatim; that
 2I inflated it deliberately, there is not a shred of
 3evidence for that. The evidence is quite clear, that as
 4soon as Dr General Flemming brought to me the evidence
 5there was one train load of Jews which was in trouble that
 6day, I immediately and in subsequent editions of the book
 7revised it to the narrow interpretation of the word
 8"transport" rather than the wider interpretation.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you are sticking with the Hitler order answer?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     As being the reasonable rather than perverse analysis of
11the documents at that time before us. I emphasise of
12course it has now been very amply confirmed by the
13intercepts I read out in my bundle this morning.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very well, then, we must look at another document. This
15is one of your documents?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do can I ask one rather mundane
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, of course.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I think you will understand why I ask it,
20Hitler's headquarters or the Wolf's Lair, how big a
21building or collection of buildings was that?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     At that time it was not a big formidable complex which
23exists today, huge concrete bunkers. There were one or two
24air raid shelters, but it was mostly in the form of wooden
25barracks scattered around in a compound of a 2 or 3
26kilometres area with minefields and forests.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     How many people would work there?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably in the order of one thousand people including all
 3the escorts and security. It had various inner areas and
 4so called "sperrkreise", which were the security zones and
 5he was in security zone A. But if it is ausdembunker,
 6from the bunker, then it is from Hitler's bunker.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By which you mean an office or --
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No, Hitler --
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- a part of the compound where Hitler was himself based?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     -- in the security zone A there was the bunker in which
11Hitler resided, lived and conducted his conferences.
12Later on it was massively reinforced after the Allied air
13raids started.
14 MR RAMPTON:     This is all on the same topic, Mr Irving, so that
15the document you are will next need is to be found in
16bundle D8(iii), somebody will give it to you (same
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The page I want is 1042.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the same time could I give you and his Lordship --
22I have composed a page of the reprinted Himmler logs for
23Sunday 30th November 1941 and Monday 1st December 1941,
24I have taken from that Witte book. I have taken out the
25footnotes because I wanted the text. I wanted the text to
26appear unvarnished. First of all would like you to look

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 1at the page in D8(iii) page in D8(iii), 1042. This is
 2taken from your website; do you recognize it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do, Mr Irving. At the bottom of the page the last
 5entry starts: Meanwhile another page from the Himmler file
 6in the Moscow archives obtained by David Irving on Sunday
 7May 17th 1998, reveals the Reischsfuhrer's appointments
 8for November 30th 1941, see above. The day of the
 9telephone call with Heydrich".
10     Turn over now to page 1043.
11     "This suggests that Mr Irving's original theory
12that Himmler discussed the matter with Hitler before
13phoning Heydrich is wrong. Himmler saw SS Sturmbannfuhrer
14Gunther d'Alquen, a journalist, from 12 to 1 p.m.
15(Reisebericht uber SS Pol Division [that is short for
16politzei] u. [that is an abbreviated U stop]
17Totenkopfdivision) then worked for an hour
18('gearbeitet') during which he made the phone call,
19received General Dietl from 2 to 2.30 p.m." I will not
20bother to read the next bit.
21     "And only then, at 2.30 p.m., went for lunch
22until 4 p.m. with Hitler ('Mittagessen b. Fuhrer') that is
23short for bei, yes ?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is your account, must postdate the 17th May 1998,
26must it not? According to that entry anyway it does, if

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