Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 204

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    -- yes, I am going to go a little bit further. This is
 1to see if we can agree on some broad general facts which
 2may be of use in this case. Himmler was, was he not, one
 3of the original putschists of 1923?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He is there to be seen marching in the ranks.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Wearing Nazi uniform.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     One of the old guard.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read Ian Kershaw's book?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Whose?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ian Kershaw's book?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not read books.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not read books. Of course not. He is one of old
12guard, is he not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So was Goring?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And so was Goebbels?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     On and off, if you see what I mean.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I do see what you mean. Is there anything which
19leads you to suppose --
20 A. [Mr Irving]     In connection with Goebbels, of course, he was not one of
21the putschists, he came in several years later.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- Rosenberg was perhaps, I do not know. Is there
23anything you know of that prevents one from supposing that
24Hitler might have telephoned as he apparently was able to
25use the telephone on the train, was he not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Himmler, you are talking about?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Himmler I mean, telephoned the Wolf's Lair and said "can
 2I come and talk to you about something"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No reason to suppose that at all, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So why you do use the word "summon"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Because then Hitler would have said "all right, come and
 6see me".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see in the context, do you agree, the word "summoned"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Means that he is being summoned in order to discuss the
10fate of the Berlin Jews?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     In the context.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Amongst other things, perhaps?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I disagree with you Mr Rampton, on November 30th, he,
14Himmler was summoned to the Wolf's Lair for a secret
15conference with Hitler at which the fate of Berlin's Jews
16was clearly raised.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By whom?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then you go on, at 1.30 p.m. Himmler was obliged to
20telephone from Hitler's bunker?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who could have obliged, that is to say compel, Himmler to
23do such a thing?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     His own inner conscience.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what it was, was it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I used word "obliged" otherwise I would have

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 1said "ordered".
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The reality of the way, would you not
 3accept, Mr Irving, of the way it is put in your book is
 4that the reader is going to infer that that was an order
 5from Hitler to him?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I use my words with utmost care when I write
 7passages like that. I will go backwards and forwards over
 8them looking for a word which I considered to be justified
 9by the evidence but not implying or imputing or inferring
10too much. If I used the word "obliged" then it was
11because I hesitated to use the word "order" but for some
12reason he made the telephone conversation. He did not
13wait until he got back to his own headquarters, he
14immediately phoned Heydrich from Hitler's bunker without
15even getting over to the local phone box, he phoned
16Heydrich with these instructions saying "stop the
18 MR RAMPTON:     That is what you intended to convey in that
19passage of that page of Hitler's War 1977?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That is all that I felt it was safe to convey on the basis
21of the very skimpy evidence I had at that time. At that
22time, of course, I did not even have the decodes, but now
23the decodes confirm me.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. Let us turn to page (xiv) of the introduction
25to this book, may we?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Perhaps for completeness start at the bottom of page
 213: "Many people, particularly in Germany and Austria had
 3an interest in propagating the accepted version of the
 4order of one mad man originated the entire massacre." We
 5are talking here about Holocaust in the old sense, old, in
 6the Irving history.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am so sorry, Mr Rampton, I am lost, page
 9 MR RAMPTON:     (Xiii) of the introduction.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I will start again. Last two lines bottom of page
1213: "Many people, particularly in Germany and Austria had
13an interest in propagating the accepted version that the
14order of one mad man originated the entire massacre." That
15is to say the massacre of the Jews, those are my words, my
16Lord. "Precisely when the order was given in what form
17has admittedly never been established. In 1939? But the
18secret extermination did not begin operating until
19December 1941. At the January 1942 Bunzig conference?
20But the incontrovertible evidence is", note those words,
21Mr Irving, in the light of your recent answers, "the
22incontrovertible evidence is that Hitler ordered on
23November 30th 1941 that there was to be 'no liquidation'
24of the Jews (without much difficulty I found in Himmler's
25private files his own handwritten note on this)." In the
26light of that, Mr Irving, would you care to revise the

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 1answers you gave a moment ago?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what do those words mean? Do they speak for
 4themselves or do they not, that I have just read?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I have done exactly what any normal editor would do, you
 6present the evidence and then you draw conclusions.
 7I present the evidence in the body of the book. I even in
 8this one case print a facsimile of the document which is
 9pivotal to this particular argument and then in the
10introduction (as a good author should) I put my principal
11conclusions. Here I am putting my principal conclusion as
12the author, David Irving, that I draw the conclusion from
13this episode that Hitler had intervened to stop -- and
14here is the error, the liquidation of the Jews. What
15I should have written is "the liquidation of a transport
16of Jews". That was the state of my knowledge at the time
17I wrote this version of this book. Subsequently of course
18I amended it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you told me yesterday that the only evidence you
20had for the order of Hitler was that Himmler was there at
21the time?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The only evidence that I had for an order of Hitler?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, was that Himmler was at the Wolfsschanze at the time?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I think we would have to see exactly what I testified
25before I would agree to that brief summary.

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