Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The answer is, of course, that I do not. Mr Irving,
 2I would like you to think a little bit about what you have
 3just said. You heard me open this case on Tuesday
 4afternoon, did you not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You have to say "yes" just for the recording. That
 7is all. Nodding or so will not do. You had a copy of the
 8written document that I read out, did you not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Which document are you referring to?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My opening statement in this case?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was on Tuesday afternoon.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You realized then ----
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- that this is one of the points that I was going to
17make against you, did you not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that has been repeatedly made, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has been repeatedly made, has it not? Yet, when you
20come into the witness box to answer questions on oath, you
21simply pluck an explanation out of the air, do you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, may I explain to you that in the last four
23days I have had six hours sleep? Is this a satisfactory
24answer to why one occasionally makes slips of the memory
25in the witness box? If not, then I will go into it in
26greater detail.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the truth, Mr Irving? You did not misread it,
 2that is clear.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes -- not this particular word.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. So yesterday's answer was a false answer.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Misinterpreted.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You now say, "Well, I may have mistranslated it, but my
 7translation was, on the face of it, legitimate"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in this case it is not a translation that is needed,
 9it is an interpretation because it is a cryptic word.
10"Transport" can mean several different things. There are
11many words that can mean several different things, and you
12have to look at the context and you have to take other
13documents and possibly later information into account in
14arriving at which of those words is the correct
15translation. None of the words would be a wrong
16translation at the time you first make it. You then
17refine the translation on the basis of external evidence.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would not a more natural way of putting it in German to be
19to put it in the plural "Judentransporte" with an "e" on
20the end?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It can also be done that way, yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would part of the context be that there did
23happen at this time to be a train load of Jews setting out
24from Berlin to Riga?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There were many train loads sitting out. By this time, by
26November 30th, there had been five trainloads of Jews

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 1heading for Riga or Minsk.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Over what sort of period?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     One week, round about that time -- no, I am sorry, two
 4weeks would be a closer approximation. They were given
 5numbers, "D" for Germany, "O" for East or German, rather,
 6and "O" for East. That is what the numbers in the
 7intercepts are.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, another of the things that you and
 9I disagreed about yesterday was your unequivocal
10categorical assertion in your various publications that
11that order from Himmler to Heydrich on that day was given
12at the instigation of Hitler. You say it was, or at least
13that is a reasonable inference; you called it a "judgment
14call", I think, did you not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I called that, the reason I used it, or referred to it in
16that -- I think we ought to see the actual wording
17I used. If you say that I said it on a number of
18occasions, it would be helpful to see the actual wording
19that I used.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For example, let us just look at how you put it in
21"Hitler's War 1991". My Lord, that is bundle D1(v). It
22is in two halves. This is the second half. At page 427,
23Mr Irving, if you are using the published edition?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just looking at the 1977 one to pre-empt you.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will look at that first, if you will. I think there it
26is round about 300 and something.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     At 1.30 p.m.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, his Lordship may not have it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Have you got 1977, my Lord? 332.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think, with respect, it makes more sense to take
 6it from the chronology that I wrote the various editions.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I was not actually going to look at all the references,
 8but if you wish me to do so, I do not mind in the
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is like a building, the way a building changes
11over the years, that tells us something also.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Himmler's personal role is ambivalent. On November 30th
131941, he was summoned to the Wolf's Lair for a secret
14conference with Hitler in which the fate of Berlin's Jews
15was clearly raised". Pause there. What evidence that
16Himmler was summoned to the Wolfsschanze the Wolf's Lair?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     My very great expertise on this matter.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     My very great expertise on this matter. Do you wish me to
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think you had better; I am not quite
22sure I understand the answer.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I asked for evidence, not expertise.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the evidence is that if you go to the archives and
25work through the files of Hitler's Chancellory, you will
26find every year, two or three times, the head of his

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 1Chancellory, Hans Lammers, issued an edict to all the
 2Reich ministers and all the senior Nazi officials
 3informing them that nobody was permitted to visit Hitler,
 4just ringing the door bell and saying, "Mein Fuhrer, can
 5I drop in and see you for a moment?" They had to have a
 6specific summons and invitation because Hitler was
 7constantly being beseiged by junior and senior officials
 8who were ringing his doorbell in that way and asking to
 9see him. Eventually, it had to be forbidden, first of all,
10by Lammers and then by an edit of Martin Bormann. So you
11could not visit Hitler unless you were summoned.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am not going away from that topic, believe
13me, I am not, but it may be we had better get this sorted
14out earlier rather than later in this case. Where do you
15place Himmler in the Nazi hierarchy?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Nowhere in the hierarchy that it would just turn up on
17Hitler's doorstep.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, we will come to that I promise I not leaving the
19topic, where do you put him?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     He had the rank of a Reichsminister, the rank of
21Reischminister was equivalent to a field marshal, so it
22would be the equivalent rank of four star general. He had
23Hitler's ear, he took orders directly from Hitler, there
24was no intermediary, is that sufficient?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- yes, I am going to go a little bit further. This is
26not hostile interrogation, Mr Irving, this is an attempt

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