Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition
Pages 26 - 30 of 204
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You see why I need to have what I am asking
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I do. My immediate idea is just to put them
4with a separate numeration at the back of Professor
5Browning or that report. It is apparently ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is not a bad idea, to put them
7into J, otherwise there is going to be proliferation of...
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am using an alphabetical system which
9requires that there are going to be less than 26 such
10files over the entire case that I would anticipate putting
11in of this nature. If you will bear with me, the reason
12I called this just "Himmler" is that I was intending to
13produce further documents, for example, the Schlegelberger
14series (which I am sure your Lordship is familiar with).
15I would also put that into that binder. So there will
16just be an Irving series, Irving A, Irving B, Irving C.
17This is, after all, my case, my Lord, and I do not want my
18structure to be subsumed into the case for the Defendants.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I entirely agree with that. This may all
20seem very boring, but, believe me, in a case like this you
22 MR IRVING: "Boring" is not a word I would use.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- really do have to watch the sort of
24housekeeping. Just so that everybody knows where I have
25it, I am putting it into J.
26 MR RAMPTON: Tab C.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got a tab C.
2 MR IRVING: My Lord, I would propose that we now continue where
3we left off last night.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to treat what you have told me in
5the last 20 minutes or so as being part of your evidence,
6although you told me from counsel's bench. It is up to
7you; I think you probably ought to go back, if you would
8be good enough, into the witness box.
9 Cross-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
10 THE WITNESS: My Lord, there is just one other document there
11that I forgot to refer to and this is No. 23. I will just
12read it out to you. There is no need for your Lordship to
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had better follow it.
15 A. [Mr Irving] A telephone conversation of exactly the same kind from
16Himmler's telephone log: On Hitler's birthday, at midday
17with Heydrich, again that is H-E-Y-D-I-C-H, a
18conversation with Heydrich in which the last line reads:
19"Kindly", "Keine vernichtungd. Zigeuner", K-E-I-N-E
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is "gypsies", is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving] That is right, my Lord.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] How would you translate "vernichtungd"?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Literally "destruction" and that is how I will leave it.
25"No destruction of the gypsies"; the significance being
26that on this day at mid-day, Himmler is with Hitler
1celebrating a birthday party. It was Hitler's birthday,
2April 20th. Once again he has had to telephone his chief
3executioner, so to speak, Heydrich, and say, "The gypsies
4are not to be liquidated" and yet they were liquidated.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] You say Himmler was with Hitler at 12 o'clock?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Quite definitely. It was Hitler's birthday and I would be
7happy to lead evidence to prove that, but I am sure
8Mr Rampton will not dispute that the head of the SS ----
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] And this is a phone call to Heydrich from Himmler?
10 A. [Mr Irving] It is a telephone conversation between them.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I take that point.
12 A. [Mr Irving] Of significance, it is one more document in that chain
13that I occasionally refer to.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, as to that, Mr Irving, the "no liquidation of
16the gypsies", again that was before there was any meeting
17between them, was it not, on that day, which is 20th April
181942, Himmler's log said that he met Fuhrer at 12.30?
19 A. [Mr Irving] This may well be. It may well be what his log says.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Whereas the telephone call is at noon, I think.
21 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Rather like 30th November?
23 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] 1941?
25 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we go back to 30th November 1941, please? Did you get
1a transcript of your evidence of the proceedings
2yesterday -- have you got a copy that looks like this,
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes I have.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] With a quarter page like that?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could you turn, please, to the page numbered 289? It is
8the top left-hand block on one of the pages.
9 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I was asking you if you remember why it was that you had
11translated "Judentransport", a singular word, as Jews in
13 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] You had said, you can see it there, can you not, that it
15was a silly misreading of the word. You said at line 19:
16"I admit I made a mistake in the transcription"?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] This was your sworn evidence on oath yesterday?
19 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now would you please turn to the first page of your new
22 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] The translation you have made for us kindly ----
24 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- 23rd January 1974, where you have transcribed it
1 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] The answer you gave yesterday was wrong, was it not?
3 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Why was it wrong, Mr Irving?
5 A. [Mr Irving] Because we are talking about events almost 30 years ago.
6I was writing this book 32 years ago. I received these
7documents 35 years ago. I probably transcribed it, as you
8can see from the letter, round about 1974. It is very
9difficult to put myself back into my mind set of 25 or 26
11 You asked me what the reason for that was and
12my first presumption was that I misread the word, but ably
13challenged by his Lordship, questioned by his Lordship, on
14this matter, I recalled also that at the time I looked at
15it, the word "transport", "Judentransport", to me also
16could be translated as "transportation of Jews". Indeed,
17it can be translated that way and I refined it later on
18when I was informed by Dr Flemming, as he then was, who is
19an expert on the Holocaust, that there was one very clear
20train load of Jews to which reference was being made.
21That is so, I think, an accurate answer which should
22really replace yesterday's answer.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] I dare say it should, Mr Irving. Whether I accept it, of
24course, is quite another question, even in its remodelled
26 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
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