Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 204

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    What is the answer he gets? Page 17, again my
 1He started shooting thousands of Germans. He had been
 2summoned to Himmler's headquarters, to Rastenburg, in East
 3Prussia to account for himself.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do we find the guideline?
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we will hear in the course of this trial
 6that these intercepts are not wall to wall. We do not
 7have everything that they sent. There is an enormous mass
 8of trivia, people whose cars have been towed and that kind
 9of thing, people whose wives have died. Occasionally
10embedded in the trivia, like in a goldmine, in the slurry,
11there are diamonds like this.
12     The incredible thing is, although this document
13has now been in the public domain for about five or six
14years, the historians and the world have not leapt on this
15document and said,"Irving was right. This proves that the
16Fuhrer's headquarters were not only indignant, but were
17calling people to account. In the way that the wars are,
18although he is brought back from the Front and he is
19wrapped on the knuckles, he is sent back to the Front to
20carry on with his job. He is not dismissed from service;
21in rather the same way as I know General Patten, for
22example, went to the Front when General Patten had been
23liquidating prisoners. He was called before Eisenhauer
24and called to account. He was put on ice for two or three
25months and then he was given command of one of the best
26armies, the 3rd American Army, because good men are hard

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 1to come by in a war. That is, undoubtedly, the way the
 2Nazis viewed this criminal.
 3     May I proceed, my Lord?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you.
 5 MR IRVING:     We can see on page 21 the arrival of the
 6unfortunate criminal, the arrival of the unfortunate
 7criminal, SS Obbergruppenfuhrer Jeckelm in Himmler's
 8appointment book, in other words, at Hitler's
 9headquarters. One notices at 1300 they are driving over
10Hitler's headquarters. Then Himmler visits the barber and
11the dentist. He sees Hitler at 5 p.m. and at 7 p.m. he
12sees other SS Generals. At 8 p.m. he has dinner in part
13of Hitler's headquarters with Jeckelm and at 9.30 he hauls
14Jeckelm over the carpet, the Jewish question, the SS
15brigade, economic business. So that is the actual visit.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would it be a fair interpretation of this
17document that the original plan was that Jeckelm should be
18present with Hitler and Himmler at 5 o'clock in the
20 MR IRVING:     I cannot be specific on that, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks like it, does it not?
22 MR IRVING:     I do not want to speculate, but these are grey
23areas. The documents do not tell us everything we would
24dearly love to know. What we do know is the final two
25pages I put in the bundle. My Lord, you will see that the
26last page has some red print on the bottom, the very last

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 1page. This is the German, I would say, official
 2transcript of Himmler's diary which, my Lord, the
 3Defendants also have on the desk in front of them. It is
 4published this year. It is enormously expensive. It is a
 5very good and highly dependable transcription of Himmler's
 6diaries and appointment book.
 7     They put that in as a footnote at 104,
 8I believe, in which they say: "After these signals were
 9exchanged", which, oddly enough, they do not elucidate to
10the degree that I have, "the killings of German Jews
11stopped for many months". I have no further submissions
12to make about these documents.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have lost me a little. Where do I find
14after these messages ----
15 MR IRVING:     The very last line of the red text. This is the
16comments by the editors, who are a team of German
17historians, on the Himmler diaries which they have
18annotated most expertly, and they too have drawn finally
19on these two mysterious messages that we intercepted.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the point that may be made, I do not
21know, on this is that it is the mass shootings of German
22Jews that ceased.
23 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord. This is why I have been very
24careful to make a distinction in my evidence and, indeed,
25in my books.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That suggests to me -- tell me if I am wrong

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 1about this -- that the guidelines mentioned in the earlier
 2message were guidelines relating to German Jews.
 3 MR IRVING:     This is quite possible, my Lord. I would only ask
 4you in reading, as undoubtedly you will, and re-reading
 5passages from my books on which the Defendants seek to
 6rely, you ask yourself this question, has Mr Irving, the
 7so-called Holocaust denier, at any time implied that this
 8kind of massacre did not go on, and that it was systematic
 9and it was carried out on guidelines from above?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
11 MR IRVING:     But you will notice that Mr Himmler talks about
12"orders that I have issued and the Reichssicherheits
13Hauptamt". He never says, "On the Fuhrer's instructions"
14which, obviously, there would be a strong temptation in a
15message like this to say, "You have not only upset me, but
16you have put Adolf's nose really out of joint".
17     So, I mean, obviously, I am going to submit that
18if documents like this exist of a quality like that, to
19imply that I was speaking off the wall in some way with no
20kind of documentary basis for the submissions that I make
21in my books, it would be unfair, unjust and perverse.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You have taken me through, and thank
23you for that ----
24 MR IRVING:     I ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- this little bundle. I am making this
26point at this stage because it is going to crop up time

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 1and again. I am rather anxious not to have little one
 2issue bundles cropping up at odd stages because, frankly,
 3in a case of this length, it is all going to get lost and
 4tangled. I imagine that all these documents are in one or
 5other of the existing files.
 6 MR IRVING:     They are in this cover, my Lord, but not in such
 7pristine condition as that. I want to very great trouble
 8last night to prepare this particular bundle in the hope
 9that you would say to yourself, well, if he was able to
10come up with evidence like this on this matter, no doubt
11he will be able on any other matter ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not misunderstand me. I am not critical.
13I think it is helpful to have a bundle prepared like this,
14but what I need to be sure of is that I know where these
15documents can be found in the existing files. What I will
16ask somebody on the Defendants' side to do, if they would
17be good enough, if they can do this, is to provide me with
18the cross-reference. Could you ask somebody to do that?
19 MR RAMPTON:     We will think about that. The trouble is at the
20moment that our files are ordered according to the
21experts' reports.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but most of these documents would be
23relatively easily traced?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Most of them, I think, are referred to in the
25expert reports anyway. Whether they are copied in quite
26that form, I am not sure; I think probably not.

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