Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 204

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    I do not want to labour the point. If you say that we
 1them. If he says we cannot shoot the Jews that implies we
 2cannot shoot any of them.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That will do. We cannot poison them. We cannot shoot 3.5
 4million. We cannot poison 3.5 million?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     But we will be able to do something, he goes on to say,
 6which will lead to wiping them out, getting rid of them,
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Getting rid of?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Vernichtung.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Vernichtung is to get rid of?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just saying the sense of this sentence is, "we can't
12kill them, we can do something that will get rid of them."
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He just said, "We can't poison, we can't shoot them".
15Whatever ways would you suggest?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Gas, Mr Irving, gas?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Vergeltung? It sounds like poisoning to me, poison gas.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Gift gas" is poison gas. Vergeltung is poison?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, he says "we can't do it".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He does not say anything about gassing. This is an
21evolutionary document.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     No point using gas if it is not poison gas.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am not sure I got your answer to
24the initial question which was, does this or does it not
25show that the instructions were from Berlin to the General
26Government as to what was to be done in the General

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, my Lord, if I did not make myself plain. I
 3thought that this in fact supported my version that Hans
 4Frank was saying that they already had all the Jews they
 5could handle. They could not even feed the ones they had
 6got: "So please don't send us any more, get rid of them
 8 MR RAMPTON:     So the word "vernichtung serfolg" is not talking
 9about a liquidation?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If you want to wipe out Christianity you do not have to
11liquidate the Christians.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not see anything about Judaism in this passage. It
13is all about Jews, numbers of Jews, 3.5 million?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He says here explicitly, "We can't kill", he says, I will
15translate it for you and it is exactly the same as your
16translation there. "These 3.5 million Jews, we can't
17shoot them, we can't poison them, but we will be able to
18do something which will one way or another lead to a
19successful wipe out, destruction".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Annihilation?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "We will get rid of them". We are back on that word
22vernichtung again, which Germans who like using these
23words in the knowledge they are going to be providing
24endless humour for lawyers 50 years down the road.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not think it is very humorous, Mr Irving, I am bound
26to say, not humorous at all.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I prefer to sit on documents where it is
 2absolutely unambiguous where we do not have to waste time
 3about the meanings of words.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mentioned I think, whether it was this morning or
 5yesterday I am afraid I cannot remember, somebody called
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Wisliceny, W-I-S-L-I-C-E-N-Y.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He was I think on Eichmann's staff, was he not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     A member of Eichmann's staff who was responsible for the
10Final Solution in Slovakia and other countries.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He made some statements after the war, did he not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Under duress, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean by duress?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     In Allied captivity, inside the gallows, which is about as
15much duress as you can imagine.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are not saying he was tortured?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Good Lord no.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say that Rudolf Hess was tortured, do you not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I say that he was maltreated. He had a torch rammed into
20his mouth.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stick with Wisliceny for the moment
22otherwise we are going to get confused.
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is my fault, my Lord.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     He richly deserved it, people like that.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not agree with that as it happens, Mr Irving.
26Can you see if you still have Professor Evans' report

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 1there? It was handed to you in error earlier.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry. Let us turn to page 344, will you?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Evans' report. It is at letter G and Professor Evans
 6writes this, Mr Irving. I will not read the heading
 7except to say it says "Testimony of Dieter Wisliceny".
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It also says: "Manipulation and Suppression of Evidence".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I was going to save your blushes. Yes, it does, does it
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "As described above, Irving claims that Dieter Wisliceny,
13one of Eichmann's top officials, described Goebbels'
14article in Das Reich as a watershed in the Final Solution
15of the Jewish problem. Once more Irving makes it very
16difficult to verify claims. According to his footnotes,
17Wisliceny's postwar report of 18th November 1946 can be
18found in the IFZ file F71/8. However, this file does not
19exist and Wisliceny's report has to be located elsewhere."
20     It is a minor point, Mr Irving. Do you accept
21that you gave a wrong reference?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I saw this file probably 30 years ago, probably
23before Professor Longerich was born.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is not Professor Longerich. This is Professor
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, even more to the point. That being so, it is

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 1extremely likely that they changed the reference number
 2since the archives are constantly changing reference
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a small point. "In his report Wisliceny states that
 5after the invasion of the USSR in June 1941 Nazi policy
 6against the Jews was transformed dramatically in a
 7step-by-step process, completed in the Spring of 1942.
 8One these radicalisng steps was taken in late 1941. As
 9Wisliceny reported: 'The second wave of radicalization
10began after the USA entered the war. This could clearly
11be felt in the internal German propaganda too. Externally
12it was expressed in the introduction of the yellow star as
13a mark of the Jews. Reference in this connection also to
14the Goebbels' article that 'Jews are guilty' in an edition
15of the magazine Das Reich'.
16     "In this period of time, after the beginning of
17the war with the USA, I am convinced must fall the
18decision of Hitler which ordered the biological
19annihilation of European Jewry" -- biologische vernichtung
20des europaischen Judentums befahl.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are well aware of that passage?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and I draw attention to the fact that in order to
24emphasis that the word "vernichtung" here means killing he
25adds the adjective "biologische", biological, because
26without that it does not mean it with sufficient emphasis.

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