Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 204

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    Yes, Mr Irving. Then why insert the reference to Hitler
 1at all in relation to what Frank was told in Berlin?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I was trying to put into one terse line of text
 3given the constraints of writing a book that is going to
 4be less than 1,000 pages what I just set out to you in
 5probably ten lines of text.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? What has Hitler got to do with this?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     This is his Hitler's biography. This is about Adolf
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Unless there is evidence that Hitler said this to Frank
10himself, you would not bother even to mention Hitler?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It may be that ignorant people will assume that because
12Adolf Hitler is the Reichschancellor and his capital is
13Berlin, therefore, the reference to "people" is Adolf
14Hitler. I am trying to make sure that ignorant people do
15not draw the wrong reference.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In order that ignorant people should not have to have it
17explained why it is not likely this order came from
18Hitler, I beg to differ with you about that, but in order
19that ignorant people, as you call them, should have that
20explained to them neatly, you actually tell a neat little
21fib. You get Hitler out of Berlin when in fact he was
23 A. [Mr Irving]     But there is nothing that is the least bit wrong about the
24sentence I put in there. With Hitler in East Prussia, his
25headquarters were in East Prussia, the references to
26Berlin can only be taken as references to the SS, the

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 1Heydrich's agencies, who were in fact wholly responsible
 2for these operations. As we know from other sources,
 3Hitler was intervening constantly to stop these things
 4being done.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got the point anyway.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am not going on.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the reference to general geography; not to specific
 8meetings or conferences that you have only recently heard
 9about, no matter how dramatic these discoveries may be or
10made to seem.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will your Lordship forgive me a moment? May Mr Irving
12please be given bundle H3 (ii). I think these are
13Professor Browning's documents.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is one I have not got here I am afraid.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the actual conference.
16 MR RAMPTON:     At tab 11, no sorry.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     10.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is open at the right place but I just want to identify
19the document.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 9, page 458.
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is called "Footnote 88" which is the Hans Frank
22extract which is printed in Professor Browning's report at
23paragraph 5.1.13 on pages 31 and 32. He has quoted some
24of that diary, but there is another passage here which
25I would like you to look at in the German, please,
26Mr Irving, while I read slowly a translation.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Presumably the second paragraph?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first complete paragraph on page 458. This is the
 3Hans Frank so-called "diary". Correct me as soon as I go
 4wrong. No, I will read it once and then when we go
 5through it again you tell me how this translation is in
 6error, if it is.
 7     "For us the Jews are also particularly useless,
 8might be damaging, consumers of food, mouths. We have
 9approximately 2.5, perhaps with those related to Jews and
10all that belongs to that 3.5 million Jews. We can't shoot
11these 3.5 million Jews. We can't poison them. But we
12will, however, be able to undertake interventions which in
13some way lead to a successful annihilation, and indeed in
14connection with the large scale measures to be undertaken
15from the Reich and to be discussed. The General
16Government must become just as free of Jews as the Reich
17is. Where and how that happens is a matter for the
18institutions which we must put into action and create here
19and the effectiveness of which I will report on to you in
20good time."
21     Is that roughly an accurate translation of that
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Just two minor beefs, as I would call them. I would say
24in connection with, where he says "in connection with the
25measures to be discussed from the Reich", I would say "in
26the context of" is probably a more apposite description.

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 1When he talks about "the institutions", "is a matter for
 2the institutions", "instansun(?)" would be more accurately
 3translated as "departments" in the sense of government
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am happy to wear that correction for the moment.
 6I do not know whether the translator is. I will find that
 7out later. Does that not, Mr Irving, completely demolish
 8the idea that in Berlin it was Frank who was telling the
 9people in Berlin "liquidate the Jews yourselves"? Is he
10not here expanding on the instruction from Berlin,
11"liquidate them yourselves"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     May I first of all make plain that I had not seen this
13passage at the time I wrote the book. So this is not
14something that lay before me when I wrote my books. Can
15I make that quite plain on oath?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You will find this when I produce the materials that I had
18that were given to me by the Institute from the Hans Frank
19diaries. Secondly, it confirms what I said about them
20already having more Jews in the Government General than
21they could handle. They could not feed and house the ones
22they did have and they were very indignant at any more
23being dumped on them given the problems they had of
24feeding the mouths they already had.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is saying: "We have got two and a half, maybe three
26and a half million Jews in this part of the Reich occupied

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 1territories, we cannot shoot them all, we cannot poison
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     He says "we can't shoot them". He does not say "all".
 4There is a subtle difference there.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, otherwise it implies they can shoot some. If I am
 9saying I cannot shoot all the people in this room, that
10implies half the people in this room have a rather bleak
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but making the place phrase "Judenfrage"
13is pretty unambiguous.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the actual phrase that has been translated here, he
15says: "These 3.5 million, we can't shoot them. We can't
16poison them", and Mr Rampton just slid in the word "all".
17 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, no. I am paraphrasing. Be kind to me,
18Mr Irving.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     You put in the word "all". We all heard you say it.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course it does, but that is what it means?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No. What it means is quite plain. "We can't shoot them".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you make the General Government "Judenfrage" if you
23do not get rid of all the Jews, if you do not achieve a
24vernichtung serfolg?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to labour the point. If you say that we
26cannot shoot them all, that implies we can shoot some of

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