Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 204

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    Anyway, you have got Hitler away from whatever Frank was
 1told because you have got him in East Prussia?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Continue, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. In fact he did not go to the Wolf's lair until 16th
 4December, did he?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     He probably left Berlin on the night of the 15th, took the
 6overnight train back to East Prussia. I could tell you
 7from the Hitler's War, the headquarters' war diary which
 8I have in the blue volume there.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All I can tell you is that in Goebbels Mastermind of the
10Third Reich on page 383 you write this: "Returning by
11train on December 16th to the Wolf's lair"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Hitler dictated a famous order", something like that?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I can tell you whether he left Berlin on the
15night of the 15th or not.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So he was in Berlin when Hans Frank was in Berlin
17receiving this instruction?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You are now referring to 12th December?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whenever. He did not leave Berlin until the night of the
2015th or the morning of the 16th. Hans Frank has got to go
21further. He has got to go all the way back to Krakov
22which is further than East Prussia?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry to admit I am now totally at sea. Which times
24in Berlin are we talking about?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Hans Frank is reporting what he was told in Berlin. When
26he was ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, by somebody whom we have not identified.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe, but Hitler was in Berlin at that time?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     He was in Berlin on, well, he was in Berlin on the 12th,
 413th and 14th definitely.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and probably on the 15th as well?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but we do not know if he is referring to Hitler. He
 7says "man". "We have been told in Berlin". Berlin's
 8population is two million.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wish you would not make speeches, Mr Irving, but listen
10to my questions. Why was it relevant to observe, if it is
11perfectly certain or more or less certain or as certain as
12an historian would like, that Frank and Hitler were in
13Berlin at the same time, why do you say "in Berlin" close
14quotes, " - and with Hitler in East Prussia this", that is
15to say Berlin, "can only be taken as a reference to
16Heydrich's agencies"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     In Berlin people tell us -- had it been Adolf Hitler who
18had told him this, he would not have said the slightly
19depricating "in Berlin people tell us", certainly not in
20the company of Reichsministers and Reichsleiters.
21Somebody would have reported back.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are slightly at cross purposes. I think
23all that Mr Rampton is putting at the moment is that they
24were in Berlin at the same time?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This I accept.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Namely, Frank and Hitler.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This I accept.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So your point on "man" and whether that is significant is
 3a different point.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps I am jumping the gun on that, yes.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     You are. You are not seeing, whether deliberately
 6or not I know not, you are not seeing what I am putting to
 7you. What I am putting to you, and I will put it
 8directly, although I would have thought it was pretty
 9obvious, is that with this little phrase in Hitler's War
10both editions and with Hitler in East Prussia, this can
11only be taken as a reference to Heydrich's agency,
12"continue, they tell us", etc., "to liquidate them
13yourselves". By doing that what are you actually telling
14the reader is that Hitler was not in Berlin at the time
15when Hans Frank was given this instruction?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I think probably the parenthesis should have been shifted
17forward two or three words to include "also people tell
18us", "in Berlin people tell us", so that i makes it quite
19plain that I am relying on the parenthesis both on the "in
20Berlin" and the rather depricatory world "people tell us".
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not quite an answer to the question.
22 MR RAMPTON:     It is not.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Yes, I will accept the point which you make,
25 MR RAMPTON:     Had you sought historical accuracy, that
26parenthesis would have been attached to December 16th

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 11941, would it not, at the top of the page: "Announcing
 2to his Lublin cabinet on December 16th 1941 Hitler was in
 3East Prussia at the time", if it was of any interest to
 4anybody. What you have tried to do, you have distorted
 5the chronology in order to make perfectly certain that
 6Hitler cannot have anything to do with this appalling
 7instruction to Hans Frank?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not distorted any chronology at all. The dates are
 9perfectly certain. On December 16th, at the time of this
10speech by Governor Frank to his cabinet, Hitler is in the
11Wolf's lair in East Prussia, as I said.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, perhaps you are tired, perhaps I am tired.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not so tired that I do not remember dates that I have
14written in books.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am sorry, it is not the problem that you do
16not remember the dates. I am afraid I think you remember
17them only too well. I will try once again then and I am
18going to leave it. Why do you not have the text of
19Hitler's War in front of you?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it open, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     428, it does not matter which edition: "Hans Frank
22announcing to his Lublin cabinet on December 16th 1941
23that Heydrich was calling a big conference in January on
24the expulsion of Europe's Jews to the East, irritably
25exclaimed", blah-blah-blah "! 'In Berlin' and with Hitler
26in East Prussia, this can only be taken as a reference to

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 1Heydrich's agencies", blah-blah-blah, "liquidate them
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now that is apt to suggest to any person who is even
 5marginally literate that Hitler was not in Berlin at the
 6time when Hans Frank was and was given that instruction?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have got a "yes" to that already, Mr
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I have, have I?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I fully understand the point you are trying to make and
11that is a narrow interpretation of those words which you
12are trying t slant or guy rope in the direction you want
13them. The point I am making is that Hitler's headquarters
14is historically in East Prussia. The seat of the
15Reichssicherheitshauptamt under the SS is in Berlin, and
16Governor Frank making his speech is in Krakow. When he
17talks about Berlin he is talking about the SS. When he
18wants to talk about Hitler he will say "East Prussia".
19When he says, "in Berlin they tell us this or tell us
20that", he is not talking about a specific meeting or a
21specific event where they have been given these
22instructions. He is just talking about these block heads,
23these mutton heads in Berlin who imagine that life can be
24made so easy that they just put the people on trains and
25send them to Poland.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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