Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "They" Heydrich's agencies "tell us: Why the caviling?
 3We" in Berlin "have no use for them either. Liquidate
 4them yourselves", you, the people in Poland?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     These are your interpolations you are putting in of
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am reading your words, Mr Irving?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I did not put in those interpolations.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what it means though, is it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what you submit.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you disagree?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I rest entirely on the way that I quote this very
13ambiguous fragment of stenographic text without making any
14interpolations one way or the other. As I explained in
15the Hitler biography, I did not consider it to be
16necessary really to point out or to try to work out who
17was talking to whom. I found it such an
18extraordinary ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So your evidence is, I am sorry to interrupt
20you, that this is capable at any rate of meaning that
21Krakov was telling Heydrich in Berlin "liquidate them
22yourselves", that is your evidence?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the far more logical interpretation, because
24I know from all the other documents at this time that Hans
25Frank was hysterical at the mention that train loads of
26Jews would be sent to the Governor General where he had

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 1problems housing and feeding people anyway, and he was
 2saying to Berlin: "Stop trying to shift your problems
 3into Poland. We are not just a dumping ground for your
 4Jews." This comes up in very many of the conferences at
 5that time. There is one particular record I remember
 6taking by Martin Bormann in October 1941, and that
 7emboldens me in putting the alternative interpretation,
 8the alternative arrow direction, shall we say, on that
 9final three words, but rather than get involved in that
10rather irrelevant discussion in this book which is about
11Hitler, I just left this extraordinary fragment of
12stenographic record, this transcript, as it is, because it
13is so pregnant with hatred and brutality and total
14callousness towards human life, and it indicates the kind
15of level at which these decisions were taken and the kind
16of gormless mentality of the people who took these
17decisions who were later quite rightly hanged for it.
18 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am not going to push that particular
19point any further. I am going to come back, perhaps not
20today, to the full text of what Hans Frank said for
21context. I am getting some clever people to translate it
22as I speak.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, can I then in that case bring on Monday the
24text I have, which may or not be identical with the text
25that you have.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you certainly should.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It may be shorter or longer. This is the reason why I say
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You certainly should.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I have the pages in the original photocopy.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is absolutely fine. Bring whatever you like you feel
 6you need to defend yourself with. It is right, is it not,
 7that having written both in 1977, as I say if you want to
 8check it, on pages 427, 428 of 1991 Hitler's War, which
 9I think is identical ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- having written "man hat uns gesagt" or "in Berlin" and
12then a quote, on page 386 of Goebbels you write this.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read it out: "Hans Frank's Government General was
15flatly refusing to accept any more", Jews that is. "Frank
16had exclaimed irritably at one of his cabinet meetings in
17Krakov that Berlin was telling them they got no use for
18the Jews either, 'liquidate them yourselves', was his,
19that is Frank's, retort?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I notice, and perhaps you did too, as I read that there is
22no reference there to Heydrich's agencies or to Hitler
23being absent, is there?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     We are talking about Berlin and we are talking about Frank
25retorting. Having now advanced something like ten years
26down the road of research and read a very large number of

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 1further documents relating to this particular context and
 2these questions, I am that much more certain that the
 3arrow goes from East to West rather than from West to East
 4as far as those three words are concerned.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Be honest, Mr Irving, in Hitler's War ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me, I am speaking here on oath, I am being honest.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not believe you are. In Hitler's War the arrow went
 8firmly from West to East. You changed the account for
 9Goebbels, did you not? That is why there is no reference
10to Hitler or to Heydrich in this text?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept that contention at all. In Hitler's War
12I gave the transcription exactly as it occurs in the
13records and I left it for the reader to make up their own
14mind. Here I am that much more certain which way the
15arrow went.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did you insert in Hitler's War the parenthesis "and
17with Hitler in East Prussia this can only be taken as a
18reference to Heydrich's agencies"?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     This is like an obiter from on high where the judge says
20to the jury, "I think that you need to take account of
21this but of course make up your own mind", and where you
22are telling the reader, well, make up your own mind, here
23is what is what the transcript says, but just in case you
24have forget it, Adolf Hitler lives in East Prussia and he
25is not in Berlin on the day this speech is being made.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was not in Berlin on 16th December 1941, Mr Irving?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because on 16th December 1941 he went to the Wolf's lair,
 3did he not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He was certainly, at the time that Frank was speaking here
 5Hitler was back in East Prussia.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On page 383 ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     May I also say that if he was referring to Hitler by the
 8use of the word "man", which is the equivalent of the
 9French "on".
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not say that.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     If he was referring to Hitler then he would have said, "at
12the very highest level we have been told". He would not
13have used the rather offensive "man".
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "On" in French, I do not know any German but I have quite
15good French, Mr Irving, "on" in French is not the least
16bit offensive. It is merely a form of expressing a
17passive sense.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but he would have been specific. He would have said
19"uns getstella(?)" or [German spoken] but more likely
20"uns getstella(?)" at the highest level.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     According to your first version, "Heydrich's agencies".
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Had he wished to refer to Hitler by that, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To what?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     If by the use of the word "man" in Berlin he would not
25have used the very impersonal version of saying "man".
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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