Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 204

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    No. What he is saying is: "Do not start dumping Jews on
 1your own problems".
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, "in Berlin we were told"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not, "I said to the people in Berlin"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Man hat" is passive?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Uns gesagt" means "they told us in Berlin"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     "Why all this bother? Why all this fuss and bother?"
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     They are talking about what they are going to be doing
12with the Jews that people are talking about now tossing
13out of Western Europe, and Hans Frank has been fighting
14hand and foot at having any dumped in his domain.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He has been told he has got to do it himself?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     No, he has been you take what you are given. He is
17saying, "I don't want them." I know the background to
18this story, Mr Rampton.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do the words mean, I am sorry, Mr Irving, I thought
20you had agreed this was an accurate translation?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is accurate.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble? We cannot
23use them in the Osterland or Reichskomissariat either.
24Liquidate them yourselves.'"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No. No one is talking about shipping Jews from the
26Osterland or the Ukraine into Berlin. The shipment is

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 1going other way round.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What Mr Rampton is putting to you is that
 3that phrase "liquidate them yourselves" is in effect a
 4direction from Berlin to the General Government.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No, sir. I read it differently both in the original and
 6even now. This is Hans Frank recalling what he told the
 7Berliners saying, "Stop dumping your Jews on us, you solve
 8your own problems, you liquidate them yourselves".
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to refer you to the full text of what
10Hans Frank said in a moment. Can you first of all read
11your own version of this, please, on page 428 of Hitler's
12War 1991.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we look at it in the earlier version because it is
14totally unchanged?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is not in the earlier version so far as I know.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It definitely it is. It is in every book that I have
17written. Which page, Mr Rampton?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you want the earlier version, I am not sure it is in
19the earlier version, but I will check that. Yes, it is.
20If you want to use the earlier version, first, I have no
21problem with that. Page 332.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, "Yet the blood purge continued".
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am waiting for his Lordship's file to emerge.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hitler's War.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is 1977 Hitler's War, my Lord, I think the
26first volume.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is I think more or less identical to what is in
 2the 1991 edition.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got a reference for that?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is page 427 it starts, the last large
 5paragraph, the last three lines. I will read. It
 6immediately follows the reference to the Himmler telephone
 7note of 1st December. Mr Irving writes: "Yet the blood
 8purge continued".
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall I read it? It is my book.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. No, I will read it: "Yet the blood purge
11continued. The extermination programme had gained a
12momentum of its own. Hans Frank announcing to his Lublin
13Cabinet on December 16th 1941, that Heydrich was calling a
14big conference in January on the expulsion of Europe's
15Jews to the East, irritably exclaimed: Do you imagine
16they are going to be housed in neat estates in the Baltic
17provinces! In Berlin' - and with Hitler in East Prussia
18this can only be taken as a reference to Heydrich's
19agencies -" -- I am coming back to that -- "they tell us",
20they, the people in Berlin, "tell us", the people in
21charge in the General Government: Why the caviling?
22We've got no use for them either ... liquidate them
23yourselves!" The "yourselves" are the people in Poland?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Well, no, not necessarily. Of course I would just
25like to comment. That is an odd passage for a Holocaust
26denier to put into a book, is it not, this entire passage;

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 1somebody who is allegedly denying the Holocaust he puts in
 2this extraordinary passage?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is there, is it not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is indeed, and I am accused of being a Holocaust
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe. Mr Irving, the true sense of that is that Hans
 7Frank was told while he was in Berlin that it was his
 8problem how to liquidate Poland's two or three million
 9Jews, is it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I am sure you have read any number of
11transcripts of verbatim conferences. Hans Frank is quite
12clearly not speaking from a prepared script. He is
13addressing a meeting, his mind darting here and there. He
14is giving snatches of what he was told in Berlin by them.
15He is giving snatches of what his retort was. He is not
16telling the stenographer, "close quotes, open quotes,
17close quotes again", and the stenographer is taking it
18down as it said.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may be, but you would have to accept,
20would you not, that the way you have recorded this in
21Hitler's War is that Frank was talking about what Berlin
22had told him and the General Government?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot say, my Lord. I do not know who what is talking
24to whom in that final three words, "liquidate them
25yourselves". It is not evident on the transcript either.
26So I have left it, I saw no reason to be specific in my

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 1book as to who was talking to whom. I would have
 2introduced probably an ambiguity one way or the other. So
 3I left it just as it was in the transcript which I thought
 4was the most accurate thing I could do. We do not know if
 5it is Poland talking to Berlin or Berlin talking to
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But if you are disassociating Hitler from what is said, as
 8you plainly are, does that not indicate that you must be
 9seeking to conveying to readers that the instructions are
10coming from Berlin?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is unimportant to me, my Lord, which way those
12instructions are coming. It is coming all at the same
13level. Berlin is shrieking at Krakow and Krakow is
14shrieking at Berlin, and Hitler is somewhere else. This
15is a biography of Adolf Hitler. It is not a book about
16the Holocaust.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If there were instructions going from Krakov to Berlin
18there would be no point in disassociating Hitler from it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler was not in Berlin, my Lord. Hitler at this time,
20December 16th, was in his headquarters in East Prussia.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think you understand the question.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the point I make.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, that simply will not do. In Berlin you
24break off to parenthesize, if I can invent that word, "and
25with Hitler in East Prussia this can only be taken as a
26reference to Heydrich's agencies (in Berlin)"?

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