Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition
Pages 161 - 165 of 204
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1 A. [Mr Irving] He has put what?
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] He has put an ellipsis in, has he not, to show that ----
3 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but it is the second half of a sentence and, as you
4know, in German, the Germans put their verbs at the end,
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. Be kind enough just to translate what we have.
7 A. [Mr Irving] "But if we then undertake incursions which in some way
8lead to a destructive result or success and, indeed, in
9connection with the measure -- in connection with the
10great measure which is to be conferred upon at the Reich"
11-- this is a reference to the coming Bunzig conference,
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is right.
14 A. [Mr Irving] It is a truncated sentence it is difficult to find your
15way into without the beginning. "Vernichtungs Erfolg" is
16the word you want to see. V-E-R-N-I-C-H-T-U-N-G-S
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does it mean this, Mr Irving, at any rate the last part of
19that first of the two bottom lines: "It will anyway come
20to a complete or successful destruction", "Vernichtungs
22 A. [Mr Irving] That would be a rigid and unacceptable translation.
23I would say, "If we succeed in wiping them out".
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which does "Erfolg" mean?
25 A. [Mr Irving] "Success", "If we succeed in wiping them out",
26"Vernichtung" or "If we succeed in destroying them".
1 MR RAMPTON: A successful wiping out?
2 A. [Mr Irving] A successful wipe out, yes, but German sentences you
3frequently have to break up and recast in order to make
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not playing tricks. I will try to find the whole of
7 A. [Mr Irving] I am trying to help you, Mr Rampton.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am being passed ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just be clear? Are you accepting that
10what Hans Frank is recording here is what Hitler said in
11Berlin to the Gauleiter?
12 A. [Mr Irving] Yes -- no, he has not made a reference to the Gauleiters
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] I know he has not made a reference to it ----
15 A. [Mr Irving] No.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- but he says: "In Berlin we were told", and I rather
17inferred that Mr Rampton was suggesting that that was from
18Hitler's speech to the Gauleiter?
19 A. [Mr Irving] I think it would be quite a dangerous leap to make.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Am I wrong about that?
21 A. [Mr Irving] It is put in ----
22 MR RAMPTON: No, it is not quite what I had put because I do
23not have the evidence to make that kind of suggestion.
24I am suggesting that while Hans frank was in Berlin,
25somebody told him, and he was there probably amongst other
26reasons for the occasion of Hitler's speech ----
1 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] -- somebody told him, it might have been Hitler, it might
3have been Heydrich, that they have to see to the
4liquidation of the Jews themselves in the East. That does
5mean that, does it not?
6 A. [Mr Irving] I do not think the word they use is "liquidation". He
7says "wipe out", "If we have a success in wiping them out,
8destroying them", "Vernichtung", which can done in a
9number of ways as I gave the instance with Christianity or
10with drug addiction.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not sure you are right about that. The word is
12"liquidiet zi selbe"?
13 A. [Mr Irving] I am sorry, I was looking at the wrong part.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] No the quote is: "Man hut uns in Berlin gesagt", "We were
15told in Berlin"?
16 A. [Mr Irving] Oh, unquestionably, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Liquidate them yourselves"?
18 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] So ----
20 A. [Mr Irving] And the reason that Browning knows about this is because
21he found this quotation in my books. I am the first one
22to have dug it out.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Brownie points to you, Mr Irving, but the fact is that
24Hans Frank is saying on this occasion when he gets back to
25Poland -- I think this took place in Krakow, did it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving] His headquarters is in Krakow, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] He is saying: "When we were in Berlin" ----
2 A. [Mr Irving] "They told us".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- "they told us, 'We can't solve the Jewish problem for
4you. We can't house them. Liquidate them yourselves"?
5 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. Berlin, of course, was the seat of the
6Reichssicherheits Hauptamt, of Reinhardt Heydrich.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] I know, that is Heydrich's headquarters too.
8 A. [Mr Irving] Hitler's headquarters, well, in East Prussia, not in
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Certainly it is though, whether Hitler took part in those
11discussions or not, I cannot tell you. I do not propose
12that he did. I do not ----
13 A. [Mr Irving] I think it is a very interesting fragment, a verbatim
14transcript to which one can attach a great deal of
15importance rather than reported third person subjunctive,
16non-subjunctive stuff. This is Hans Frank's actual words
17taken down by a stenographer and that is why I was very
18pleased to quote them in full.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, surely. We are not here necessarily, Mr Irving,
20talking about the Jews that the Einsatzgruppen found in
21Russia; rather the contrary, do you not think?
22 A. [Mr Irving] The German Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are talking about two groups of Jews if we are talking
24about Hans Frank and the General Government?
25 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are talking about German and other Jews, Slavakia or
1wherever else, French, Dutch, Belgium and so on, that were
2shipped to East, transported I mean, but we are also
3talking about the indigenous Jews at Poland, are we not?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Primarily at this time the indigenous Jews. I do not
5think that any major shipment of Jews had started from
6Western Europe in Poland or the General Government at this
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you agree that Eichmann said at the Bunzig conference,
9I think it was he, it may have been somebody else, it may
10have been somebody else who gave the figure, there were
11roughly two and quarter, two and a half million Jews
12living in Poland at that time in early 1942?
13 A. [Mr Irving] That is almost certainly the right figure, but Eichmann
14did not speak at the Bunzig conference. He just kept the
15minutes as I understand it.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] But that is the figure that was given at the Bunzig
18 A. [Mr Irving] I will take your word for it, Mr Rampton.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] You have read it. I am sure you have read the protocal,
20the minute or whatever it is. So what Hans Frank is
21saying here is: "The Jews that we are responsible for
22(getting rid of) numbering roughly two and a quarter
23million, we have been told by Berlin we have to liquidate
24ourselves". That is what it is saying, is it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving] No. What he is saying is: "Do not start dumping Jews on
26us. We have got no room for the ones we have got. Solve
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