Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 204

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    If we can now turn straight over to page 9, my
 1message November 30th.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, he would not say that, my Lord, because
 3Himmler recalls that he had lunch with Hitler on that day.
 4 MR IRVING:     Well, I am just dotting the Is and crossing the Ts.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is not made, so we need not trouble
 6with that.
 7 MR IRVING:     It also talks about the arrival of the Fuhrer's
 8train that very morning. On the following day is the
 9photocopy from the page of war diary at Hitler's
10headquarters. We then come to the crucial document we
11were talking about yesterday evening, which I ...
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I still have your copy of that.
13 MR IRVING:     I put it in the bundles for sake of completeness.
14It is referred to in the third conversation. I draw
15attention only to the first lines, which says: "Telephone
16conversation on November 30th 1941". The next line "Wolf
17stanche" means Wolf's Lair. The next line "ausdemzung" it
18means from the train. Himmler is still in the train going
19to Hitler's headquarters.
20     Three lines down, ausdembunker, from the bunker,
21he is at the bunker now, in the Wolf's Lair, 13.30 he
22telephones Heydrich, as we know only the third and fourth
23line of the notes are important, "Jew transport from
24Berlin, no liquidation".
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     If I may proceed now to page 13, my Lord. This is

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 1the one that I am alleged mysteriously to have misread and
 2the implication being I deliberately misread it or
 3deliberately changed word the Gerhartens Fuhrer (?) into
 4"juden", which would be quite a feat.
 5     My Lord on the page 13 the question of the line,
 6the contentious line is third from the bottom, haben
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have to remain.
 9 MR IRVING:     You will notice, my Lord, the word "haben" has
10obviously been retyped, a bit of squeeze getting it in.
11It was retyped by my when I realized my error in
12transcription. That typewriter was disposed of some or
13ten or 15 years ago. That is how early I realized my
14error. I do not know if it is significant one way or the
15other, it may count against me. I do not know.
16     It is also significant to see in the following
17line, my Lord, I have written the words "truppenschuhe",
18and this is another misreading by me.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not really matter, does it.
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am just trying to say as you will see
21from the next page, which I now ask you to turn.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you leave that, I thought there was
23another point made on this document, which is your
24translation of the words --
25 MR IRVING:     That is Verwallueys Fuhrer.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Am I not right about that?

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 1 MR IRVING:     This was the point Mr Rampton sought to make, and
 2I corrected him, my Lord, and said that was not the word
 3that I misread. It was the word on the following line
 4haben, which I misread as Juden, and this is why I was
 5going to ask your Lordship, respectfully, to turn to the
 6next page, page 14, where you will see the words in
 7question, three lines from the bottom on the right, that
 8is the quality of the original I was working from. I do
 9not know if your copy is highlighted, the crucial word is
10not perhaps...
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it is. What did you originally
12transcribe that as?
13 MR IRVING:     Juden, I would submit this is a perfectly
14reasonable kind of mistake to make. If I was to labour
15the point I would draw your Lordship's attention to all
16the other versions of the word "Juden" that are correct,
17you will see they are very similar indeed in the German
18Gothic handwriting.
19     So what we have, my Lord, to recap at this
20point, November 30th Himmler for some reason in a
21telephone conversation with Heydrich saying that train
22load of Jews from Berlin is not to be liquidated.
23I believe that is a fair expansion of that sentence.
24     On the following day he has that telephone
25conversation with SS Gruppen Fuhrer Poll, I am back on
26page 13, at 4.45 p.m. They touch on Depervartens (?)

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 1Fuhrer, but more important now is the conversation, again,
 2with Heydrich about the same time as the previous one, on
 3the previous day, 13.15 on that page 13. He has a
 4conversation with Prague first of all about his scribes,
 5the female scribes and, secondly, "executionen", like
 6"executions", in Riga. I am sure I do not have to
 7translate that. So it is now very much in the air that
 8something has gone on in Riga, my Lord.
 9     On page 15, that same day, we are well in the
10chronology, my Lord, this is a telephone conversation at
117.15 a.m. on that Monday morning, December 1st, 1941.
12This is coming from Jeckelm to Berlin. This is a very
13ugly one indeed, my Lord. He is saying in English:
14"I need by next available air courier 10 Finnish",
15Finland, in other words, "military pistols with two drum
16magazines each. Execution of sonder aktionen", special
17actions, S-O-N-D-E-R A-K-T-I-O-A-N, "request radio
18telegramme reply. Senior SS and Police Command, North
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who is this addressed to in Berlin then?
21 MR IRVING:     The main leadership Hauptamt, would be the body
22concerned with the procurement of such armaments. The
23significance of this, my Lord, if you remember the
24harrowing description by General Bruns of the shootings on
25the edge of the pit where the men were using machine guns,
26tommy-guns, and he has run, he has not enough tommy-guns,

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 1he needs more. You can see the actual intercept of that,
 2my Lord, on the next page.
 3     What is the answer he gets? Page 17, again my
 4translation my Lord, Himmler himself contacts him, either
 5in person, that is the second message, or through his
 6Adjutant, Grothmann (who is still alive in Germany now).
 7He sends this message to that same criminal, Jeckelm, at
 87.30 p.m. on December 1st: To SS Obergruppenfuhrer
 9Jeckelm, Senior SS and Police Commander, Osla, Riga.
10Reichfuhrer SS Himmler summons you to him for a conference
11on December 4th. Please state when you will arrive here
12and by what means you will be travelling". In other
13words, he had been summoned urgently to the Headquarters.
14The very next message explains what is going to happen.
15"SS Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckelm" -- this is the message we
16dealt with yesterday, my Lord -- "The Jews being outplaced
17to Osland", to the Baltic, "are to be dealt with only in
18accordance with the guidelines laid down by myself and/or
19by the ... (reading to the words) ... on my orders.
20I would punish arbitrary and disobedient acts", signed
21Himmler. A most incredibly important message, I think,
22for many reasons. He is not talking about a Hitler order
23here. He is saying: "The guidelines issued by me", by
24Himmler, "or by the Reichssicherheits Hauptamt" who is
25Heydrich", his telephone conversation partner. Jeckelm,
26out on the Eastern front, has overstepped the guidelines.

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