Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 204

<< 1-5201-204 >>
    I do not know because I have not looked at your
 1find out for certain what proportion of that bears to the
 2whole of the entry?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I suggest, therefore, that when we resume on Monday
 4I bring the entire December 1941 Goebbels' Diary that
 5I brought back from Moscow with me and can see what I had
 6and what I did not because it was in the discovery and you
 7must have seen.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not seen it, but I am sure we must have it.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you did not see it, it is not my fault. It was
10in your discovery and it was available.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not criticising you, Mr Irving. I am quite happy to
12take blame for negligence, idleness, whatever you like.
13     Mr Irving, I want, therefore, to pass away from
14that, if I may, and, if his Lordship will allow me, to
15come back to it on Monday when I have done my homework and
16ask you about something else, which, as you said, it is
17probable that Hans Frank as one of the Reichleiters?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He was ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was General ----
20 A. [Mr Irving]     --- he was a Reichleiter and he would have been of the
21rank to attend that meeting.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Surely he would; he was General Governor, was he not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In fact, he went to Berlin for the meeting, so there
24is no reason to dispute he was there.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The odious (and it is not really meant to be a pun)
26Globocnik was one of his subordinates?

.   P-156

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Of Hans Frank? At this time he was the Police Chief in
 2Lublin, I believe.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes -- no, this is not true. The SS was -- they conducted
 5an independent existence in the Government General.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, OK. It does not matter. It is not important.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish me to expand on that?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, not now.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No? There was no hierarchy bringing the two together.
10The name is Globocnik -- G-L-O-B-O-C-N-I-K.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Odilo Globocnik.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the surname will suffice.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Otherwise known as "Globos". May Mr Irving please
14be provided please with Professor Browning's report?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Have we finished with Dr Goebbels?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have finished with that for the moment. As I say, I am
17coming back to that later on. I am trying to keep some
18semblance of chronological order. I am still in December
191941. Have you got Dr Browning there?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 30 and 31?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     30 and 31, correct. Dr Browning also quotes the speech of
22Hitler, but in abbreviated form, in other words, he does
23not quote as much of the Goebbels' diary entry as does
24Dr Longerich.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you see that?

.   P-157

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He goes down as far as saying (which you agree is a
 3correct translation, well, I do not know if you do), that
 4was no figure of speech, top of 31, "The World War is
 5here. The Vernichtung", whether it is destruction,
 6extermination, annihilation or whatever, "of the Jews must
 7be the inevitable consequence".
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is again a contentious and tendentious
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we have been through that I think
12 MR RAMPTON:     We have been through that. That is why I used the
13word "vernichtung"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, but it is the word "Jews" also that we have to look
15at there, is it not? Destruction of the Jews. But this
16is ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is quite plain because he refers to "des
18Judens", so there really cannot be any argument about
19that, can there?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     No. "[German].. Judentums", no.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     There is not reference to "Judentums".
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the fifth line, so he has allowed himself a lot of
23poetic licence in his translation. My Lord, I have to be
24careful about what I accept here I cannot be heard to
25accept something that is not ...
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You are quite right. I think I was wrong. You are quite

.   P-158

 2 MR RAMPTON:     You were in that respect, my Lord, but not, in
 3fact, in the earlier part of which forms the
 4context. "Zeeda ... [German] ... Vuren" and "ihre" there
 5is "their" which is the Jews' is it not?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But in connection with "Vernichtung", it is
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Both have "vernichtung" attached to them.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     But I believe it is the next part you wish to continue
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the next part. It is what Hans frank is reported as
12having said when he got back to the General Government on
1316th December 1941. This is printed in what one might
14call the official common place book, would it be right?
15It is the Tagesbuch. That is an official record, is it
16not, of some kind?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the abridged version of the multi-volumed diaries
18and conference records of the General Governor, Hans
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you have used it yourself?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I used the original manuscript, yes. I did not use the
22printed edition. It is in my discovery.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have used this passage?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I have indeed and I used the original manuscript and not
25the printed version.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe so. At the end of this first page, 31, in

.   P-159

 1translation, perhaps here the German does not really
 2matter, perhaps you will agree. The first complete
 3paragraph at the bottom of -- sorry, last paragraph on the
 4page: "What is to happen to the Jews? Do you believe
 5that they will be lodged in settlements in Osland?" That
 6is the Baltic countries, is it not, Osland?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble? We cannot
 9use them in the Osland or the Reichcommissariat either.
10Liquidate them yourselves!'".
11     Then goes on, apparently, Governor Frank: "We
12must destroy the Jews wherever we encounter them and
13wherever it is possible in order to preserve the entire
14structure of the Reich". I would ask you to turn over the
15page, Mr Irving, where at the bottom of page 32 you will
16find the German of ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I have just been reading, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Has Professor Browning translated it correctly?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I used a different translation in my own book, but
20this is an adequate translation.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right, is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But he has not translated the last two lines on page 32.
24Would you please read those and tell us what they mean?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is an incomplete fragment.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He has put an ellipsis?

.   P-160

<< 1-5201-204 >>