Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 204

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    Mr Irving, I just want to make sure I am
 1understanding what the question is directed to. Are you
 2saying that you did not have the passage quoted ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     By Longerich.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- in Longerich ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- at page 61, 62, when you wrote Goebbels?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, my Lord, yes. I did not have it. It has only
 8recently been published by the Institute of History in
 9Munich. They obtained the diaries in 1992, shortly after
10I obtained take them, and it has taken them six or seven
11years to make them available to the general public.
12I still have not received the volumes that I ordered from
13the publishers.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am not sure what you did have.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just pursue this? I am still a little
16bit puzzled. You do make reference though in Goebbels to
17the speech that Hitler made to the Gauleiter?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Purely because we know that there was a speech from Martin
19Bormann's diary.
20 MR RAMPTON:     You quote from it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     And because Goebbels being a typical diarist, he kept on
22rambling back and forth as he dictated the diary to his
23Private Secretary, and he kept on coming back to the
24previous day's speech, but not the passage there.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what are you saying -- just bear with me
26-- I am trying to follow.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, my Lord. I will shut up!
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I can just speak for a minute? Are you
 3saying that what you say about Hitler's speech to the
 4Gauleiters in your book, Goebbels, comes from Bormann's
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. It comes from a previous passages of the
 7Goebbels' diary. Had I read all 100 pages, I would have
 8stumbled across this paragraph too; but I can make it very
 9easy for your Lordship and for the Defendants by drawing
10their attention to the fact that in my discovery were the
11entire Goebbels' diaries that I obtained from Moscow.
12They could have come to court producing the pages which
13they had found in my discovery, proving that I had had
14them at the time I wrote both Goebbels and Hitler, and
15saying, "Here, he had them here, and yet he ignored them
16when he wrote that", and the answer is they have not done
17so because those pages are not in my documents because
18I did not get them.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am still puzzled. What exactly did you base what you
20write in Goebbels about the Gauleiters speech upon?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I read the Goebbels' diary for December 13th 1941, just a
22few pages. On each page there would be about 200 pages in
23a big typeface. I read all the pages relating to the
24German declaration of war on the United States which had
25just been made that day; and then Goebbels mentions the
26fact that the previous day Hitler had delivered a speech

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 1to the Gauleiters, and he mentions it in the terms that
 2I have quoted in full -- believe me, I quoted everything
 3that I had in my hands when I came back from Moscow
 4because it was interesting material. Had I read on
 5another 30 or 40 pages in the diary for that day, I
 6would probably have come across the full length
 7description, the report of the Gauleiters' speech on which
 8Longerich is relying. But I have not seen it from the
 9Moscow day in 1992 to about the middle of last year when
10it was finally made available and quoted by Christian
11Gerlach in his book and elsewhere. I am still not very
12impressed by it, but I do wish to make the point in case
13it was going to be inferred that I had had the material
14and not made use of it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I understand.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have been in my discovery and it was not.
17 MR RAMPTON:     How long are these daily entries in Goebbels'
18diary? I have not understood it.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     They vary in length depending on what is happening.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How long is this entry for 13th December? It reports the
21previous day's events. How long is the entry for the
22speech of Hitler?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea. I have not seen it.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you quoted from it.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The previous entry?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you quoted from it on page 383 of Goebbels. This is

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 1what I find baffling.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but, you see, he kept on coming back to it, something
 3like that he would keep on coming back to as things
 4occurred to him. He is sitting in the room with his
 5Private Secretary, Dr Richard Otte, his chief
 6stenographer, dictating the following morning the events
 7of the previous day and he would keep coming back to
 8something. The diaries were not really intended for
 9publication in that form; they would have been edited.
10I came across an earlier reference to it in the diaries
11which I then have used here; but to this day I have not
12seen any full length description of the Gauleiters'
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you know it is 30 or 40 pages further
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, presumably it was because, anyway, it was not on the
17glass plate that I had, my Lord. The glass plate would
18have had 45 pages on it. The glass plate was either five
19times five or six times eight, depending on when it was
20made, pages per glass plate, and they were in complete
21disarray. So I would have had the plate which contained
22the bits I used, but not the bits which contained the
23speech on it. I had no commission from The Sunday Times
24to look into this kind of thing.
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, may I take some instructions because
26I have just been given a rather important document?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to have five minutes?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I think I need five minutes actually because
 3it is not a document I am not aware of.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, bearing in mind the transcribers'
 5task, but shall we say quarter past?
 6 (Short Adjournment)
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am grateful to your Lordship. Can I say this?
 8I will say it to Mr Irving, if I may? Mr Irving, I say
 9two things now and I undertake to come back to it on
10Monday, not more this afternoon because I am not clued up
11enough yet, but I will be. First, I do not accept that
12the failure to use a subjunctive is necessarily a bar to
13the written material being a report of what somebody else
14says in German. You do not have to comment on this.
15I tell you this so that you will know what is coming.
16Second, that the Goebbels' diary entry which you quoted in
17the book is not as long as you said that it was. All
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. I do not understand the second part of that,
20the Goebbels' diary entry which I quoted? The original
21entry you mean?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The original entry from which I quoted.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know because I have not looked at your
25discovery. That is one of the things I want to do, is how
26long is the entry from which you quoted. I also want to

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