Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 204

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    Can I ask that you look in Langscheidt because I do not
 1have a copy here.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You accept "Jewry" is the right translation?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Jewry, Judaism, but not Jews. If somebody talks about
 4wiping out Christianity that would be the parallel, my
 6 MR RAMPTON:     This is only Dr Goebbels speaking, does it matter?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the standard dictionary?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You cannot -- we cannot believe a word Dr Goebbels says,
 9can we?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     This is your Judentums.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just looking to see if it is in, it may be Jewry
12collective... there is a choice Mr Irving, which would you
13like to choose?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Wiping out Jewry, wiping out Judaism, it is not the same
15as exterminating the Jews this is a manipulated
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has Jewry?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He is saying that this is evidence of the wiping out of
19the Jews.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, look at it "Jewry" big letters, extermination of
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Extermination of Jewry.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Is not the same as annihilating Judaism.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but the two meanings are both there?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He has chosen once again the tendentious meaning, which

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 1highly is disreputable for an historian to do.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Perhaps that is because it is consistent with the rest of
 3the text?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is incumbent upon an historian, just as a lawyer to
 5give the benefit of the doubt to the person you are
 6impugning; am I correct?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you are not correct. Not in this case.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     In an ambiguity.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, there is not ambiguity here --
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a total ambiguity.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I go back: "He had prophecised to the Jews that
12if they", nothing to do with Judaism, "once again brought
13about a world war they would experience their own" that is
14to say the Jews own extermination "vernichtung", the same
15word in the next sentence.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     This is Dr Goebbels, right?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, yes.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     OK.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, that is Hitler.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler as reported four years later by Dr Goebbels.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By Dr Goebbels. The world war is there. The
22extermination of Jewry must be the necessary consequence.
23The one flows quite naturally and logically from the
25 A. [Mr Irving]     In the first case he has taken the third meaning of the
26word. In the second case he has taken the second meaning

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 1of the word. In neither case has he taken the primary
 2meaning of the word, primary translation. If I was to do
 3that I think I would be hearing about it shortly in this
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Eradication, extermination, annihilation all mean the same
 6thing --
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I gave an example if one talked about
 8eradicating Christianity, drug addiction, you do not go
 9about wiping out the drug addicts.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I have the point.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I think there is room for manoeuvre on something like
12this and it is incumbent on people not to take the evil
13meaning of a word when there are much better sources.
14 MR RAMPTON:     There is only room for manoeuvre for those who
15want to find room to manoeuvre?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Like people who pay witnesses for expert cases like this.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I must make a note to prompt you to put that allegation to
18Dr Longerich --
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall, to all the witnesses.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us press on with the translation.
21 MR RAMPTON:     This question must be seen without sentimentality
22"die frage ist ohne jede sentimentalat so
23betrachten" correct?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     -- that is a fair translation.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. We are not here in order to have sympathy with the
26Jews, "wir sind nicht dasu da, mitlied mit den juden"

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 1correct so far?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Sondern nur mitleid mit unserem deutschen volk so haben"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Just to have sympathy.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Rather we should sympathise with our own German people?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     A loose translation, but I am not tendentious.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If the German people have now once again sacrificed as
 8many as 160,000 dead in the eastern campaign, then the
 9authors of this bloody conflict must pay with their
10lives (German spoken) authors?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     (German spoken) of this bloody conflict, therefore -- with
13their lives -- account for, must account for or pay for?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, this is Dr Goebbels.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It may be?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry it is, because it is not in the subjunctive.
17If it is not in reported speech. If he was reporting what
18Hitler had said, it would be not "hat" but "ete", that is
19the way reported speech is done in German.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see no ground for thinking that Hitler said anything
21like this?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     This is Dr. Goebbels' gloss on what Hitler had said.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You think it is just a gloss on what Hitler said. Do you
24think it is a invention?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what the language tells us Mr Rampton it is not in
26subjunctive, so it is not him reporting what somebody else

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 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you answer my question.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I have given you the answer.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you think it is an invention?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Is what an invention? He is writing down his own
 6opinions. Goebbels --
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     None of this is attributable to what Hitler said on this
 8occasion when he addressed the Reich and Gau leaders on
 912th December --
10 A. [Mr Irving]     -- Mr Rampton, you do not know and I do not know because
11we do not have a transcript of that speech.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How much do you say Mr Irving of this little
13snippet is a report of what Hitler said to the gaulieter?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     -- as I say, in all my editions of Hitler's War, Hitler
15made the original speech on January 30th 1939 and he
16repeatedly and ominously repeated and recorded what he had
17said on that occasion, saying I prophecised then and
18I will say it again and those who laughed then they are
19laughing on the other side of their faces now. This kind
20of thing. He said it something like eight or nine times
21during the war on 8th November 1942 and so on.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Answer my question.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It was one of his stock speeches. So I know with a pretty
24fair degree of certainty how much of this quotation Hitler
25actually said because Hitler was always saying the same
26thing and how much is probably Goebbels adding his own

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