Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 204

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    Is that on the balance of probabilities, as though it were
 1on the balance of probabilities the evidence is that Adolf
 2Hitler was at the heart of all of this? Do you follow me?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a rather vague sentence, that Hitler was at the
 4heart of all this.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it probably clear what Mr Rampton is
 6getting at, can I put a related question, I would be
 7interested to know what your answer is; do you
 8"vernichtung" would be a word that would be likely to be
 9used if what was being talked of was deportation to
10Madagascar or anywhere else?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree it would not and there are definitely cases where
12word "vernichtung" is used in the sense of murder. For
13example, in the German phrase ( German spoken), the
14destruction of people who are not entitled or should not
15be allowed to live. It is quite definitely a killing
16operation, but there are so much better sources where you
17have the actual transcript of what people are speaking
18that I hesitate to waste the court's time looking at the
19kind of document when undoubtedly you have the verbatim
20transcript of what Hitler said where he uses similar words
21or the same words.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Fortunately for everybody, Mr Irving, it is not in
23your hands whether the court's time is wasted. If I try
24to waste the court's time I will be told not to, if I am
25thought not to be wasting the court's I will not be told.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     If I was sitting there wearing a wig I would have jumped

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 1to my feet and made this point.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have made it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am wearing my other hat if I say that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you want to invite his Lordship to stop this line of
 5cross-examination please do so.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Come on, I think you are not asking me to and
 7if you did, I would not.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you. Now then you do not like Dr Goebbels
 9use of the word "vernichtung". You are not certain that
10that is a word Adolf Hitler would have used on that
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we know exactly what speech Hitler made on January
1330th 1939, there we have the verbatim text.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Turn back to page 38 of the same report.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     We know exactly what Hitler said there, so why we are
16using a second hand version of a version of it repeated
17four years later.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For the very fact that it was repeated on 12th December --
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler constantly repeated this speech.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- please, Mr Irving, be patient and listen to my
21questions. Its importance you may agree is that it occurs
22again on 12th December 1941 at the time when the German
23Jews were being transported in large numbers to the East?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. If you go back to 811 of Dr Longerich's report you
26find the relevant English of the Reichstag speech on 30

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 1January 1939?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I know the speech off by heart.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In that case you will agree that the last words in
 4citation are: (German spoken); which means the
 5annihilation, extermination or eradication of the Jewish
 6race in Europe, does it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we just be absolutely certain what German words he
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is same word, take it from me.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     In German, very well, my Lord, yes.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is at the bottom of the page in German (German
13 A. [Mr Irving]     In this case I would say that the word "race" implies that
14he is not talking about an actual killing operation and
15certainly January 1939 nobody was talking about killing
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does word "genocide" mean, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Genocide?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, genocide.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     An English word genocide?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is not English, it is Latin.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not a Latin word, you mean Latin origin?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. What does it mean?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     You explain to the court.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you tell me if you know what it means.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Killing of people by virtue of their race.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it means killing of a race of people.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it any different from the "vernichtung" of a "rasa"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     You destroy races in other ways than killing them. Nobody
 5in January 1939 and I would be very surprised if you can
 6establish the opposite was talking about killing Jews.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am going to go on with this little comparison
 8between --
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- if you forgive me and as long as I am not told by his
11Lordship it is waste of the court's time, but there is
12little comparison between what Dr Longerich has written in
13English and what the original German of Dr Goebbels diary
14was. We have finished with the word "vernichtung erleben
15geben", which means "they would experience", this was not
16just an empty phrase. The German is: "Das is keine frazig
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does that convey to you? This was --
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Dr Goebbels is saying that is not an empty phrase. This
21is not Hitler saying this is an empty phrase, this is
22Goebbels saying it is an empty phrase.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- so you say.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is Goebbels diary.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you know it is not a report what Hitler said?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Let me educate you in the German language. If this was

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 1Goebbels saying this is Hitler saying it would have been
 2in the subjunctive. German language reports reported
 3speech in the subjunctive. It would be (German spoken)
 4not (German spoken) I am sure every German in this room
 5would agree with me.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Everything in the rest of this quotation is not
 7attributable to Hitler; is that your position?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     We are taking this sentence by sentence; is that correct?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let go on, the world war is there, the extermination and
10again the words are (German spoken) that is of Jewry, Jews
11in general if you like, must be the necessary
12consequence. (German spoken)?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Here he has the same word, vernichtung, but he has given
14it a totally different translation, extermination, am
15I right?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean?
18 MR RAMPTON:     I see the two words "extermination" one on top of
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you mean different from the 1939
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the word that is different of course is Judentums
23what does your Langscheidt tell us about that?
24 MR RAMPTON:     I doubt it has it in, I am not going to bother
25with it.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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