Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The second rune, you know what I mean by the rune, the
 2lightening flash that the SS ----
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, SS thing.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     --- the second rune is right off the photocopy.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     So we cannot tell if there is a full stop or not.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got the original?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have got it in my volume at the end -- the blue volume
 9marked "Himmler Diary".
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got that printed transcript of these documents?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is in this file, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am afraid that I do not trust this ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     --- to that degree. Let me just explain why I will not
15trust this for being that kind of evidence. On two or
16three occasions I spotted instead of writing "u." for
17"und", they have written out "Und" in full.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My fault entirely. I used the wrong document. One does
19make mistakes. I quite agree. Turn back to page 13 of
20your own documents, will you? This is your carefully
21retranscribed version of the Himmler log?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where you correct the mistake "Juden" to read properly
25 A. [Mr Irving]     "Haben" with a small "h".
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And there is no full stop after "SS", is there?

.   P-126

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have been highly improper of me to have put a
 2full stop in if there was not one visible on the
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. What would in German the sentence or phrase
 5(because is not really a sentence) "VerwaltungsFuhrer der
 6SS haben zu bleiden" mean -- I mean "Juden zu bleiden",
 7I beg your pardon. What would it mean?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Jews to remain.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. I will read it in English: "Administrative
10officers, leaders, of the SS Jews to remain"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Read like that, it would mean nothing at all. It would be
12quite meaningless.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. It would be a complete nonsense, would it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Be patient with me, Mr Irving. I am just
16going to a new topic now. Mr Irving, you are conscious,
17I suppose and, in fact, I know you are, that Adolf Hitler
18made a speech I think to Reich and Gauleiters in Berlin on
1912th December 1941. I am still in the same period of
20short period of history.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     4th December?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 12/12/41.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We know that because there is a report of it in Goebbels'
25diary for 13th December, is there not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a reference to it.

.   P-127

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Well, there is rather more than that, I think. Have
 2you got -- have you got your Goebbels book there?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer is "no" can he be provided with a
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, please somebody give him a Goebbels.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is here. I have it here.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn to page 383 you see in the first complete
 8paragraph you start like this: "Addressing the... whilst
 9still in Berlin Hitler opted for greater candour. He
10confessed that he had spent sleepless nights... whether he
11was doing the right thing in declaring war on Roosevelt."
12     Then you quote Goebbels: "The Fuhrer" Goebbels
13reported to his diary "is convinced that he would have had
14to declare war on the Americans sooner or later. Now the
15conflict in the Far East drops into our laps as an added
16bonus". "He viewed the battle of the Atlantic" etc. etc.
17down to the end of paragraph "an unavoidable hitch".
18Footnote 72. In footnote 72, which is on page 646, you
19explain that those references are taken from Goebbels
20diary on 13th December.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, and that is true.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I am sorry, what page?
24 MR RAMPTON:     646, the footnote.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, what page in the text?
26 MR RAMPTON:     383, I am so sorry.

.   P-128

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The second paragraph.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I ask you to note, I will wait until his Lordship has
 3it, I ask you to note on the same page in the second part
 4of the next paragraph these words, because I am coming
 5back to this: "Returning by train on December 16th to the
 6Wolf's Lair" yes?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that you are saying means that -- I take it what are
 9you saying means that Hitler having addressed the
10Gauleiters on the 12th went back to the Wolf's Lair in
11East Prussia on the 16th?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I can easily check it from the war diary.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I am sure you are right about that, I am not about to
14dispute it, you will be surprised to hear.
15     Could you now please be provided with a copy of
16Professor Evans' report? No, I am sorry that is the wrong
17reference I beg your pardon. Can somebody retrieve that
18mistake by me, and give Mr Irving Professor Longerich.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This point is dealt with by Evans?
20 MR RAMPTON:     I know it is, but I have not got the reference in
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is page 320.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I have put it away.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking forward to it actually.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking forward to it.

.   P-129

 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is very well known passage in Goebbels diary,
 2or seems to be. Thanks perhaps in part to Mr Irving,
 3I know not. If you have got Dr Longerich's report now,
 4could you turn to page 61 of the first part?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have it.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are on 12th December still. His report reads as
 7follows, at the bottom of page 61, paragraph 17.3: "One
 8day after the declaration of war on the USA on 12th
 9December Hitler addressed the... of the party"; so far is
10that correct, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In this speech he returned once again to prophecy of 30th
13January 1939", that is the one in the Reichstarget about
14the fate of Jews, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And now announced the approaching extermination of the
17Jews living under German domination, as we can read in the
18Goebbels diaries."
19     Now please look at footnote 156, and I am not
20going to read it out because that is a strain for me and
21worst still for the transcribers. It is the original
22German. Tell me if it is accurate, your German is very
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The German text is accurate apart from the fact it has
25transcribed some of the diacriticals incorrectly.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fair enough.

.   P-130

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