Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 204

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    I remind you of your previous question; you are saying it
 1present tense, but was it most likely in 1977 when I wrote
 2the book or published the book?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am looking at the German as it was written in 1941.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, are you asking me was it most probable that the fourth
 5line referred to the third line in the 1960s when I wrote
 6the book? The answer to that is it not so likely, it is
 7not so evident because at that time we did not have the
 8documents that we do now.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ignore the extraneous material completely, if you will,
10Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     You cannot when you are writing books.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will. I am trying to get back to your state of mind in
131970 something when you first wrote this passage which got
14replicated in 1991. I look at what you had in front which
15you told us this morning was just the sheet. You did not
16have the surrounding material. German is an ordinary,
17Western European language. They think like us, they speak
18somewhat like us, and the entry is: "Jew transport from
19Berlin", full stop, "no liquidation". Now, if the
20"liquidation" refers to Jews, it refers to those Jews and
21no other Jews?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you have four topics referred to in that
23conversation, one, two, three and four. One, two and
24three are all totally different topics from each other,
25and it is very reasonable to assume that the fourth topic
26is probably also yet another fourth topic.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is interesting.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     But you say there was no other document before me at that
 3time. Of course, there were the rest of these telephone
 4logs. For example, the reference to "no destruction of
 5the gypsies" which clearly shows the way which decisions
 6are going at the top.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you mean the fourth line, "Keine Liquidierung" could
 8refer to the verhaftung of Dr Jakelius?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Equally.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the verhaftung of Dr Jakelius?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     The arrest of Dr Jakelius. Dr Jakelius, my research has
12established, was an euthanasia doctor in Vienna who had
13been arrested for some reason.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. He has been arrested. What is the Angleblich
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Somebody who was, apparently, claiming to be a son of
17Molotoff. Molotoff, the Foreign Minister, had no sons.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then there is the "Judentransport aus Berlin"?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Then come -- yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the fourth line is "Keine Liquidierung", so this
21could mean that none of those three groups, categories, is
22to be liquidated. Is that what you are telling us?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I said that. I am saying that all four
24lines can be taken separately because the first three
25lines are quite clearly separate topics from each other.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us go through it. Plainly, it is an utter nonsense to

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 1talk about the "angeblich sohn Molotoff" as being subject
 2to an injunction against liquidation, is it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Subject to?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Being subject to an injunction against liquidation?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, very clearly it is. If somebody was the son of a
 6prominent Soviet leader, they would definitely be kept in
 7a very special confinement.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He was thought at one time to have been on
 9that train.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The usual trick was that a prisoner would be taken and he
11would claim to be Churchill's son or nephew or cousin or
12something like, and knowing that they would not be able to
13kill him. But it would be dangerous to read too much just
14into three words. All we know is that Molotoff had no
15sons and that, obviously, there is no connection between
16the Jakelius and Molotoff.
17 MR RAMPTON:     No, but, of course, there is no full stop after
18"Jakelius" either, is there, so it might be asserted that
19he was arrested because he was pretending to be the son of
20Molotoff, might he not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure how much time the court wishes to...
22 MR RAMPTON:     Well, this is fanciful.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am wondering whether we have not thrashed
24through this document sufficiently.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Is it not? The "Keine Liquidierung" refers to the
26"Judentransport aus Berlin" whether there is a full stop

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 1or not.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     This is your opinion, but it is not mine, Mr Rampton, when
 3I am writing my book in early 1970s and ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It comes to this. In the early 1970s you
 5took that, as you now accept wrongly, to have been a
 6reference to Jews generally?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     At large or at larger than is justified. I took it to be
 8transportation, the transporetation of the Jews as ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No, in the introduction it is "at large", not "at
10larger". In the introduction it is all Jews.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This was the inference that I drew ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the incontrovertible evidence that Hitler had
13ordered, no liquidation of any Jews anywhere.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Into account I take when writing that sentence my entire
15expertise based on all the other documents that we have by
16that time already collected, and, of course, now we know a
17great deal more which proves I was absolutely right to
18write what I wrote at that time.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, we are not here to find out whether you were
20right or wrong; if we were, we would be here until the
21next Millennium.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I doubt it.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No doubt. We are here to test your credentials, your
24honesty and your integrity, as an historian, a chronicler
25of these events. The proposition which I put to you for
26you to deny is that you deliberately distorted the sense

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 1of these two lines so as to make the reference to "Keine
 2Liquidierung" without any warrant whatsoever appear to be
 3a reference to Jews everywhere?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This sentence would only stand up in court, in my view, if
 5you were able to establish that at the time I wrote those
 6sentences I knew different and better. I think it would
 7be very difficult to make that stand. To show that one
 8makes a mistake in interpreting a translation of the word
 9"transport", that one chooses the wider interpretation
10rather than the narrow narrower definition that we now
11know to be correct from the other documentation, this is
12not a deliberate wilful and perverse distortion or
13manipulation or translation of a document.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I put it to you, Mr Irving, that, on the contrary, it
15quite plainly is -- shall we leave it there -- which you
16deny? Just while we are on the question of full stops,
17since you have raised it, if we go to page 14 in your
18little bundle, we see the rather worse photograph,
19I agree, of the same sort of document that the log for the
20beginning of December, the first day of December?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Precisely, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and I do not know, this is not a very good copy, are
23you certain whether or not there is a full full stop after
24word ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     "SS"?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "Verwaltung", yes, "SS"?

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