Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not going to read it again. We have heard it too
 3often. In the middle of the page, there is the passage
 4dealing with the Berlin Jews, is there not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have written: "The fate of Berlin's Jews was clearly
 7raised". So the context of that passage is, at any rate,
 8foreshadowed as being Berlin's Jews, is it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The context of the paragraph is the prior responsibility
10of the SS for the murders and not Hitler.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But we are talking here in this little bit about a
14discussion about Berlin's Jews between Hitler and Himmler?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in that sentence.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Then you say in the next sentence: "At 1.30 p.m.
17Himmler was obliged to telephone from Hitler's bunker to
18Heydrich the explicit order that Jews were not to be
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let me ask you this. You remember what you put in the
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When you wrote that, did you mean to say that these Berlin
25Jews or Berlin's Jews in general were were not to be
26liquidated, or that Hitler had made a general prohibition

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 1against the slaughter or murder of Jews anywhere?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is nit-picking.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     What I am about to say is nit-picking.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, I see.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     But there is a period after the word "Judentransport aus
 7Berlin", Jew transport from Berlin. In other words, there
 8is a full stop at the end of that and a new line. Then
 9comes the phrase "Keine Liquidierung" as a separate
10phrase. Operating as we were at that time, 1977, totally
11in the darkness about this particular -- we now know a lot
12more, but at that time we were operating totally in the
13darkness. I was going through a jungle of new documents
14that no other historian had set foot in. It was perfectly
15rational to say, is the "Keiner Liquidierung" a phrase
16which is attached to the line above, or is it a separate
17subject; just in the same way, if you look, there are four
18lines in that facsimile. The first one is -- I will say
19it in English so we have no problem -- arrest of
20Dr Jakelius. The next line after a period is "Apparently
21son of Molotoff" or "apparent son of Molotoff". The next
22line is "Jews transport from Berlin", full stop. The next
23line is "No liquidation".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that in the light of our present knowledge
26the fourth line clearly refers to the third line. Are you

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 1with me, Mr Rampton?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am absolutely with you, Mr Irving. Carry on.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But in the state of my knowledge in 1977, when I am still
 4in darkest jungle of new documents, it was perfectly
 5reasonable to accept the fourth line as being as detached
 6from the third line line as were the first and second
 7lines from each other and from the rest.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So answer to Mr Rampton's question is that
 9you were conveying in that passage what you thought was an
10explicit order relating to Jews generally, not just Berlin
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Based solely on the fourth line with Jews being the topic
13of conversation, my Lord, yes.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am coming back to that.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why the full stop is so important.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say that, but it has this possible effect as well
17which is something evidently you did not even pause to
18think about; it might not have had anything to do with
19Jews at all, might it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You inflated it on the basis of what one might call a
22speculative inference into a general order against the
23liquidation of Jews in general, did you not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I object to the word "inflated". I said that
25I interpreted that line from the clear evidence that the
26previous topic of conversation had been Jews.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Berlin's Jews?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Jews all the same. I interpreted the fourth line as
 3being a reference to "no liquidation". We now know that
 4this was, in all probability, a reference purely to that
 5train load.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We do not want to get ahead of ourselves, at least I do
 7not want to get ahead of myself, Mr Irving, though you
 8should not feel sorry for me.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Right, but please do not forget that full stop in the line
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course I do not forget it. I can see it in the
13 A. [Mr Irving]     We had a lot of discussion about whether the "K" of
14"Keine" was actually a large "K" or a little "k" among
15historians, believe it or not.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you have a full stop, it does not matter?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, people wondered if that was a full stop or a
18blemish, my Lord. This is the kind of level to which one
20 MR RAMPTON:     The fact is, Mr Irving, that full stop or no, the
21first line of those two lines concerns Jews from Berlin,
22as it happens, one transport?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it concerns Jew transport or transportation from
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The second line, if it is to be read disjunctively from
26the first line, refers to "no liquidation". No

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 1liquidation of what? Businesses, gypsies?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have to be a very perverse mind indeed which
 3accepted there was no connection between the fourth and
 4the third lines, general topic.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The natural meaning of those two lines taken together,
 6whether you insert the full stop or not, is that there is
 7to be no liquidation of the Jews from Berlin?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You say whether you accept the full stop or not; the full
 9stop is there.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No difference. It might have been a ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Pardon?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There might have been nothing. It is a note in a man's
13handwritten telephone log.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree. One cannot put it on the gold balance.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you say, Mr Irving, the "liquidieren" refers to Jews at
16all, then it is most probable, most probable -- I do not
17have to deal in certainties, you see, Mr Irving -- that it
18refers to the Jews referred to in the previous line, is it
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. So why, what was the warrant for your inflating this
22(and I use that word advisedly because it is an inflation,
23objectively regarded) into a prohibition against the
24liquidation of all Jews anywhere?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I remind you of your previous question; you are saying it
26is most likely that it was, and you are talking in the

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