Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 204

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    Quite clearly, I am sure that Mr Rampton would not
 1by this Defendant and others.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have dealt with that very clearly in your
 3evidence and, of course, I have that well in mind.
 4 MR IRVING:     It has a certain actuality about it which is quite
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true. Yes, if you would like to go
 8 MR DAVID IRVING, continued.
 9Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, have we finished, at any rate for
11the time being, with H17, because if so I will hand it
12back because I have your copy. That is the German version
13of Bruns' statement.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I am afraid I have not quite finished with
15Bruns. I thought I had, but, as usual, that is the
16trouble with adjournments; things occur to one that one
17might have asked and did not. But, for completeness,
18I will ask. (To the witness): Mr Irving, do you still
19have there the file D3(i) which is the file of published
20articles or talks by you?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     D3(i), yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am looking at tab 30 which is the print of your speech,
23the JHR conference in October '92.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the questions which followed it. You remember -- you
26need not look it up, but it is on page 24, if you want of

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 1tab 30, internal page 24, not final page 24 -- I drew your
 2attention towards the bottom of the left-hand column to
 3the words in quotes as a report of what Bruns had said
 4that Altemeyer had said: "These mass shootings have got
 5to stop at once". Do you remember that this morning?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And I think your answer was to this effect, that it was
 8justified anyway but you could not rely on a transcript of
 9an extemporary answer to a question. I am summarizing.
10I am not quoting your words directly.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     On this transcript of my extemporary answer?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, on this example?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that it would be -- yes, continue.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it right, Mr Irving, that, in fact, before this version
15of your words as printed in this way, you went through
16them and approved them?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Occasionally I did.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This particular article?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure, Mr Rampton, you will be able to refresh my
20memory; if I did, then I did.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have recently told us so in your answers to our
22requests for information.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to be specific about this one, and I am not
24being clever, but frequently they would send me a
25transcript to read, and sometimes I would proof read it
26and send it back and sometimes I would not.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are right to be cautious, Mr Irving, not because I am
 2setting traps, but because memory is fallible. You served
 3on us, that is to say, our side, something called ---
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     "Answers to requests for information".
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Some answers".
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fair enough because there were only some answers, on 27th
 8December of last year?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And one of the answers was this. This is No. 13 on page
115, my Lord. It is tab 9 of the main pleadings bundle,
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do not think I have it.
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, but it does not matter; it is very short. Is
15very short. (To the witness): "In October 1992 I spoke
16at an IHR conference"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Is that this one?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is the only one I know of in October 1992. "As
19on previous occasions, I attended my booked table and paid
20no attention to the other speakers. Once again
21I corrected the text of my talk before it was published."
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Also it is right to say, is it not, that the whole of
24that, including the questions and answers, appears on your
25web site?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     The whole of this?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not correct to say that.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not correct.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That particular passage does, does it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you give me the web site address?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I will. In fact, I had better you see the hard copy.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Www.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     File D2(iii). It is
10Speech ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- 111092 HTML?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     In that case, that is correct, but does this particular
14passage also appear on that or just the speech?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it does. I have the page here. By all means, I will
16pass it up.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you will take that on trust, I
18suspect, will you not?
19 MR RAMPTON:     You can trust me if I say something like that.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the reason I say that is because in some of the
21witness reports things have been said to be on my web site
22whereas, in fact, they are just links on my we site
23somewhere else.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, do not let us take more time on this.
25I think it is accepted it is on the web site.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I think the answer is yes.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it is.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     So, first of all, you corrected the transcript of
 3the talk before ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- it was published and, secondly, you put the whole
 6thing in that form on to the web site?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Without in any way reviewing it.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I understand that, but the fact is we can then take it
 9that you have no quibble with the quotation marks around
10the words "These mass shootings have to stop at once"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Not the kind of thing I would quibble about, I do not
12think, no.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Quite, good, I an glad to hear. There is one more,
14slightly more substantial point that I want to go back to
15which I apologise for having missed this morning. I am
16grateful it has been drawn to my attention. Have you got
17your 1977 "Hitler's War" with you there?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     1997?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1977?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am apt to '97 when I mean 1977, excuse me.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the English edition of it, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I think the words are probably the same though, are
24they not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The English and American, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 332?

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